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	<title>Comments on: Aging and the resurrection of the immune system</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Amy Proal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-2023</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Proal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-2023</guid>
		<description>Hi Alex,

Thanks for noticing the grammar mistake.  It has been corrected and my copy editor has been unceremoniously beheaded.

About the telomeres, yes stress has been pegged as a factor for why they shorten, but infection is one of the greatest causes of stress.  

Many Th1 diseases are often blamed incorrectly on "stress" as if the patients is too stressed out and if they just adjusted to a calmer lifestyle they would recover.  This is a myth, and I wonder if the researchers who attribute telomere shortening to stress are just following this same mindset because they are completely unaware of the infectious component.  IMO, stress is all too often a scapegoat and I find the presence of L-form bacteria to be a much more reasonable explanation for shortened telomeres.

Best,

Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Alex,</p>
<p>Thanks for noticing the grammar mistake.  It has been corrected and my copy editor has been unceremoniously beheaded.</p>
<p>About the telomeres, yes stress has been pegged as a factor for why they shorten, but infection is one of the greatest causes of stress.  </p>
<p>Many Th1 diseases are often blamed incorrectly on &#8220;stress&#8221; as if the patients is too stressed out and if they just adjusted to a calmer lifestyle they would recover.  This is a myth, and I wonder if the researchers who attribute telomere shortening to stress are just following this same mindset because they are completely unaware of the infectious component.  IMO, stress is all too often a scapegoat and I find the presence of L-form bacteria to be a much more reasonable explanation for shortened telomeres.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Amy</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-2019</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-2019</guid>
		<description>It's a good, informative article, but I had problem with you stating rather categorically that L-form bacteria were responsible for shorter telomeres in Parkinson caregivers - when most research simply correlates stress with shorter telomeres. It appears that infection with L-form bacteria is just one of many causes of telomere shortenning.

Off topic, regarding the common mistake in use of the verb "effect" instead of "affect". It seems the more people make this mistake, the more it spreads. Please fix it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a good, informative article, but I had problem with you stating rather categorically that L-form bacteria were responsible for shorter telomeres in Parkinson caregivers - when most research simply correlates stress with shorter telomeres. It appears that infection with L-form bacteria is just one of many causes of telomere shortenning.</p>
<p>Off topic, regarding the common mistake in use of the verb &#8220;effect&#8221; instead of &#8220;affect&#8221;. It seems the more people make this mistake, the more it spreads. Please fix it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: amyproal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-335</link>
		<dc:creator>amyproal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-335</guid>
		<description>Hi Shegeek,

Thanks for your comments.  It's interesting that you have been following research about aging, and I agree- somebody needs to let most of these researchers know about L-form bacteria!

I also follow this area with great interest as I personally think it is one of the most interesting areas of research that has been affected by Dr. Marshall's work.

Best,

Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Shegeek,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  It&#8217;s interesting that you have been following research about aging, and I agree- somebody needs to let most of these researchers know about L-form bacteria!</p>
<p>I also follow this area with great interest as I personally think it is one of the most interesting areas of research that has been affected by Dr. Marshall&#8217;s work.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Amy</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: amyproal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-332</link>
		<dc:creator>amyproal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-332</guid>
		<description>Hi Julia,

I understand that your statement was just an expression of the fact that you feel good.  But perhaps the fact that you are feeling better than you have in many years does support the point that I was trying to make with this piece.

There are no guarantees in this article - only hypotheses.  But everything I wrote was backed up by scientific evidence and logical reasoning.

Most of us are so used to hearing that we will age - that our health will deteriorate and then we will die.  

But I urge you to think big.  Consider the idea that aging  is actually a process that is greatly affected by the pathogens we carry.  Consider that debilitation may not have to accompany old age, and that the removal of the bacteria causing the symptoms of old age can very well make people feel younger and live longer lives. Perhaps aging can be viewed as a disease itself, something that the MP can truly impact.  

When you stop to think about it, what is aging?  Why do some 40 year-olds feel like they can run marathons while others start to get wrinkles, aches, and pains?  The bottom line - one person has accumulated more bacteria than the other person.  

Giunta and others in the field of aging implicate inflammation (cytokine release) and oxidative stress as the main reasons why our bodies age.  And it appears that bacteria are responsible for causing these processes.

In the end this inflammation, oxidative stress, and VDR deactivation affects EVERYONE - playing a huge role in why people age.

But for the first time ever, the MP mitigates all of these factors - leaving, people, as I described in the article, with bodies working similar to those of a child.  Add to this the fact that once L-form bacteria are killed the body has shown great ability to repair old damage.  After all, the body is constantly producing new cells, new bone cells etc.

I encourage you not to confine your thinking - it is very possible that with all of the above factors at play the MP can affect aging. In many ways the MP is more than just a treatment for certain specific illness symptoms.  You may very well be killing bacteria that are purely involved in the aging process - bacteria that for over millions of years have lived with humans and contributed to aging, but for the first time in history are being killed.

Who knows what may result?  I didn't write this article to advertise the MP or to make it look good.  I wrote it because I genuinely believe that the treatment shows great promise when it comes to affecting the aging process.  I wrote what I wrote because everything I wrote is scientifically plausible.

So when you say "Simply because I think we should keep things in perspective. The MP is not the mythical elixir of youth. It could give us a healthier old age, but we will still grow old and die. That’s the destiny we have chosen for ourselves by failing to heed the manufacturer’s instructions (Genesis 3:19). “It is the blight man was born for.” (G M Hopkins)"

...I don't agree.  We are not necessarily born to age in the manner that we do.  Perhaps it is time to let go of these old perspectives.  Dr. Marshall's research and the emerging field of Inflammaging actually show the urgency of creating a NEW perspective.


Best,

Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Julia,</p>
<p>I understand that your statement was just an expression of the fact that you feel good.  But perhaps the fact that you are feeling better than you have in many years does support the point that I was trying to make with this piece.</p>
<p>There are no guarantees in this article - only hypotheses.  But everything I wrote was backed up by scientific evidence and logical reasoning.</p>
<p>Most of us are so used to hearing that we will age - that our health will deteriorate and then we will die.  </p>
<p>But I urge you to think big.  Consider the idea that aging  is actually a process that is greatly affected by the pathogens we carry.  Consider that debilitation may not have to accompany old age, and that the removal of the bacteria causing the symptoms of old age can very well make people feel younger and live longer lives. Perhaps aging can be viewed as a disease itself, something that the MP can truly impact.  </p>
<p>When you stop to think about it, what is aging?  Why do some 40 year-olds feel like they can run marathons while others start to get wrinkles, aches, and pains?  The bottom line - one person has accumulated more bacteria than the other person.  </p>
<p>Giunta and others in the field of aging implicate inflammation (cytokine release) and oxidative stress as the main reasons why our bodies age.  And it appears that bacteria are responsible for causing these processes.</p>
<p>In the end this inflammation, oxidative stress, and VDR deactivation affects EVERYONE - playing a huge role in why people age.</p>
<p>But for the first time ever, the MP mitigates all of these factors - leaving, people, as I described in the article, with bodies working similar to those of a child.  Add to this the fact that once L-form bacteria are killed the body has shown great ability to repair old damage.  After all, the body is constantly producing new cells, new bone cells etc.</p>
<p>I encourage you not to confine your thinking - it is very possible that with all of the above factors at play the MP can affect aging. In many ways the MP is more than just a treatment for certain specific illness symptoms.  You may very well be killing bacteria that are purely involved in the aging process - bacteria that for over millions of years have lived with humans and contributed to aging, but for the first time in history are being killed.</p>
<p>Who knows what may result?  I didn&#8217;t write this article to advertise the MP or to make it look good.  I wrote it because I genuinely believe that the treatment shows great promise when it comes to affecting the aging process.  I wrote what I wrote because everything I wrote is scientifically plausible.</p>
<p>So when you say &#8220;Simply because I think we should keep things in perspective. The MP is not the mythical elixir of youth. It could give us a healthier old age, but we will still grow old and die. That’s the destiny we have chosen for ourselves by failing to heed the manufacturer’s instructions (Genesis 3:19). “It is the blight man was born for.” (G M Hopkins)&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;I don&#8217;t agree.  We are not necessarily born to age in the manner that we do.  Perhaps it is time to let go of these old perspectives.  Dr. Marshall&#8217;s research and the emerging field of Inflammaging actually show the urgency of creating a NEW perspective.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Amy</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: amyproal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-343</link>
		<dc:creator>amyproal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-343</guid>
		<description>Hi Mo,

Thanks for your interest in this article but in terms of your comments I think you are very confused about the latest science described on this site.

It's critical that you read the article I have written about vitamin D:

http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/

Vitamin D does NOT influence lifespan or telomere length and I'm not sure where you got that impression.  Vitamin D isn't even a vitamin - it's precursor form is a secosteroid that slows the activity of the immune system.  Any study that reveals a "benefit" of vitamin D is only picking up on it's immunosuppressive effects.

Second, immunosuppressedness is exactly the same thing as immunodeficiency, why?  Critical this understanding it the fact that the immune system does NOT "go to war with itself."  The concept of autoimmune disease is on it's way out and it is now understood that the immune system is not attacking itself.  Rather, bacteria in the tissues cause the immune system to release the cytokines that generate inflammation.  This means that the immune system should always be active - so that these bacteria can be killed and kept in check.

I'm really not sure what you mean by the last comment.  Dr. Marshall's research has clarified exactly what dysregulation (at the molecular level) is occurring in patients with inflammatory disease.  Namely an increase in substances (many created by bacteria) that block the vitamin D receptor, thus slowing the activity of the innate immune system, the antimicrobial peptides, and the transcription of thousands of genes.

Last, but not least, the MP not an expensive treatment and almost anyone can participate.  The nurse moderators on the MP site answer your questions for free, there is not charge to use the board or get advice.  Everyone helping patients is a volunteer. The  cost of the antibiotics is relatively cheap.   Benicar costs more, but can be ordered at a better price from Germany.  

I urge you to read more of the information on this site and also on the MP study site.  There is a wealth of new concepts that must be understood if one is to truly understand the MP and the effects of vitamin D.

Best,

Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mo,</p>
<p>Thanks for your interest in this article but in terms of your comments I think you are very confused about the latest science described on this site.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s critical that you read the article I have written about vitamin D:</p>
<p><a href="http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/"  rel="nofollow">http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/</a></p>
<p>Vitamin D does NOT influence lifespan or telomere length and I&#8217;m not sure where you got that impression.  Vitamin D isn&#8217;t even a vitamin - it&#8217;s precursor form is a secosteroid that slows the activity of the immune system.  Any study that reveals a &#8220;benefit&#8221; of vitamin D is only picking up on it&#8217;s immunosuppressive effects.</p>
<p>Second, immunosuppressedness is exactly the same thing as immunodeficiency, why?  Critical this understanding it the fact that the immune system does NOT &#8220;go to war with itself.&#8221;  The concept of autoimmune disease is on it&#8217;s way out and it is now understood that the immune system is not attacking itself.  Rather, bacteria in the tissues cause the immune system to release the cytokines that generate inflammation.  This means that the immune system should always be active - so that these bacteria can be killed and kept in check.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really not sure what you mean by the last comment.  Dr. Marshall&#8217;s research has clarified exactly what dysregulation (at the molecular level) is occurring in patients with inflammatory disease.  Namely an increase in substances (many created by bacteria) that block the vitamin D receptor, thus slowing the activity of the innate immune system, the antimicrobial peptides, and the transcription of thousands of genes.</p>
<p>Last, but not least, the MP not an expensive treatment and almost anyone can participate.  The nurse moderators on the MP site answer your questions for free, there is not charge to use the board or get advice.  Everyone helping patients is a volunteer. The  cost of the antibiotics is relatively cheap.   Benicar costs more, but can be ordered at a better price from Germany.  </p>
<p>I urge you to read more of the information on this site and also on the MP study site.  There is a wealth of new concepts that must be understood if one is to truly understand the MP and the effects of vitamin D.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Amy</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mo</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-330</link>
		<dc:creator>Mo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-330</guid>
		<description>Highly interesting, but it seems vitamin D could slow ageing and effect telomere length too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7083323.stm
MP then is just another way of doing it. An expensive way that only benefits a minority.

May I point out that immunosuppressiveness is not comparative to immunodeficiency, there are valid reasons for stopping the immune system going to war with itself on some areas.

Not everyone achieves vitamin D dysregulation, so for most, vitamin D - a bit of sun on our skin like plants and other animals - is essential. Instead of MP wouldn't it be better to find out what's causing the dysregulation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Highly interesting, but it seems vitamin D could slow ageing and effect telomere length too.<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7083323.stm"  rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7083323.stm</a><br />
MP then is just another way of doing it. An expensive way that only benefits a minority.</p>
<p>May I point out that immunosuppressiveness is not comparative to immunodeficiency, there are valid reasons for stopping the immune system going to war with itself on some areas.</p>
<p>Not everyone achieves vitamin D dysregulation, so for most, vitamin D - a bit of sun on our skin like plants and other animals - is essential. Instead of MP wouldn&#8217;t it be better to find out what&#8217;s causing the dysregulation?</p>
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		<title>By: shegeek</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-325</link>
		<dc:creator>shegeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-325</guid>
		<description>Julia,

I, and probably everybody else, too, took your comment about "16" to be the colloquial hyperbole it was intended to be. Please don't feel like you said something wrong.

Healthy life extension and the defeat of aging are vital (and IMHO important) research directions, however, and it is possible that Dr. Marshall's findings may contribute to their success. I don't expect the MP to stop or reverse my aging, but I consider it one of the best things I can do if I want to still be alive when and if the cure for aging is found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julia,</p>
<p>I, and probably everybody else, too, took your comment about &#8220;16&#8243; to be the colloquial hyperbole it was intended to be. Please don&#8217;t feel like you said something wrong.</p>
<p>Healthy life extension and the defeat of aging are vital (and IMHO important) research directions, however, and it is possible that Dr. Marshall&#8217;s findings may contribute to their success. I don&#8217;t expect the MP to stop or reverse my aging, but I consider it one of the best things I can do if I want to still be alive when and if the cure for aging is found.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia Grier</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-308</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia Grier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-308</guid>
		<description>&#62;&#62;"many patients who reach the later stages of the MP report feeling younger than when they started"

As you began this excellent blog with a quote from me (“I’m sixty going on sixteen”) I feel a little bit responsible for encouraging the view that the MP can somehow reverse the aging process.  So I stopped to think what I meant by that rather careless remark.

Let's be honest: I didn't really mean 16.  When I fell ill with sarcoidosis, I lost my concentration, my memory, my ability to read with understanding, my ability to hold an intelligent conversation, my reasoning powers, my mathematical ability... and with it all came the fatigue that made every little thing too much of an effort.

All these things made me feel old in my mid-fifties - well, young Amy, I suppose that does sound old to you!!  But my mother, who died riddled with cancer at the age of 84, had a mind vastly sharper than the pulp that mine had become.

So when I say that I now feel younger again, I suppose what I really mean is, that the signs of premature aging that I was suffering from because of my disease have now gone away on the MP.  This is probably how a 60-year-old is meant to feel!  And the relief of getting my brain back is enough to make me feel younger because it takes me back to where I was before I was so ill.

Why am I saying this, which could be taken as a negative comment, when I'm so enthusiastic for the MP?  Simply because I think we should keep things in perspective.  The MP is not the mythical elixir of youth.  It could give us a healthier old age, but we will still grow old and die.  That's the destiny we have chosen for ourselves by failing to heed the manufacturer's instructions (Genesis 3:19). "It is the blight man was born for." (G M Hopkins)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&#8221;many patients who reach the later stages of the MP report feeling younger than when they started&#8221;</p>
<p>As you began this excellent blog with a quote from me (“I’m sixty going on sixteen”) I feel a little bit responsible for encouraging the view that the MP can somehow reverse the aging process.  So I stopped to think what I meant by that rather careless remark.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be honest: I didn&#8217;t really mean 16.  When I fell ill with sarcoidosis, I lost my concentration, my memory, my ability to read with understanding, my ability to hold an intelligent conversation, my reasoning powers, my mathematical ability&#8230; and with it all came the fatigue that made every little thing too much of an effort.</p>
<p>All these things made me feel old in my mid-fifties - well, young Amy, I suppose that does sound old to you!!  But my mother, who died riddled with cancer at the age of 84, had a mind vastly sharper than the pulp that mine had become.</p>
<p>So when I say that I now feel younger again, I suppose what I really mean is, that the signs of premature aging that I was suffering from because of my disease have now gone away on the MP.  This is probably how a 60-year-old is meant to feel!  And the relief of getting my brain back is enough to make me feel younger because it takes me back to where I was before I was so ill.</p>
<p>Why am I saying this, which could be taken as a negative comment, when I&#8217;m so enthusiastic for the MP?  Simply because I think we should keep things in perspective.  The MP is not the mythical elixir of youth.  It could give us a healthier old age, but we will still grow old and die.  That&#8217;s the destiny we have chosen for ourselves by failing to heed the manufacturer&#8217;s instructions (Genesis 3:19). &#8220;It is the blight man was born for.&#8221; (G M Hopkins)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-301</guid>
		<description>I really like the style of your articles. Very informative and easy to follow. Thanks!
//Erik</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like the style of your articles. Very informative and easy to follow. Thanks!<br />
//Erik</p>
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		<title>By: shegeek</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>shegeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/2007/11/18/aging/#comment-299</guid>
		<description>Great overview of Th1 and aging, thanks. I've been following the healthy life extension community for some time, and I'm always glad to see investigations in this area. It can be frustrating hearing gerontology researchers keep discussing gene expressions but not what might be influencing the genes. I notice that they keep seeing the same things that Dr. Marshall is seeing--inflammation, hormonal and enzymatic imbalances, similarities among the different Th1 diagnoses--and I'm eagerly waiting for the day when they finally find and incorporate the understanding of the role of L-form bacteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great overview of Th1 and aging, thanks. I&#8217;ve been following the healthy life extension community for some time, and I&#8217;m always glad to see investigations in this area. It can be frustrating hearing gerontology researchers keep discussing gene expressions but not what might be influencing the genes. I notice that they keep seeing the same things that Dr. Marshall is seeing&#8211;inflammation, hormonal and enzymatic imbalances, similarities among the different Th1 diagnoses&#8211;and I&#8217;m eagerly waiting for the day when they finally find and incorporate the understanding of the role of L-form bacteria.</p>
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