22 Mar 2008
Maybe vitamin D isn’t the answer after all.
Not only does the above statement ring true, it’s also the title of a recent post on “Dr. Len’s Cancer Blog” – a website written by Dr. Len Lichtenfeld, Deputy Chief Medical Officer for the national office of the American Cancer Society, in order to facilitate communication with the public on important issues related to cancer.
Dr. Lichtenfeld, as described by his website, is a frequent spokesperson on a variety of cancer-related subjects, and serves as a liaison for the Society with many professional and public organizations. He’s also a board certified medical oncologist and internist who was a practicing physician for nearly 20 years and serves on several national committees focused on physician payment, the quality of medical care, and the role of health information technology in healthcare delivery.
In the blog entry described above, Lichtenfeld attempts to explain to the public why the American Cancer Society does not plan to advise the American public to take extra vitamin D supplements in the name of preventing cancer (this is in contrast to the Canadian Cancer Society which has, unfortunately, urged citizens to ingest more of the secosteroid).
Lichtenfeld begins his discussion by taking a close look at one of the most recent studies on cancer and vitamin D – a study conducted by the National Cancer Institute. The first study to actually look at the relationship between measured vitamin D in the blood and subsequent total cancer deaths, it failed to show an association between baseline vitamin D status and overall cancer risk in men, women, non-Hispanic whites, non-Hispanic blacks, Mexican Americans, and persons younger than 70, or 70 years or older.
“The key finding of the study was that there was no impact of vitamin D levels on the overall risk of dying from cancer, when comparing groups based on where they lived or what season their blood test was drawn (spring and summer would be expected to increase vitamin D levels, compared to winter),” Lichtenfeld explains. “Vitamin D had no impact on cancer deaths when various racial/ethnic groups were examined.”
Of course, Lichtenfeld does acknowledge that the research team found a significant reduction in colorectal cancer among subjects with higher levels of vitamin D (25-D) in their blood. Yet, in a decision that reflects his neutrality on the subject, Lichtenfeld makes it clear that such findings will need to be confirmed by future studies before the American Cancer Society considers vitamin D as a possible remedy for colorectal cancer.
No doubt he is aware of a similar study conducted by Jacques Rossouw at the National Institutes of Health, whose group tracked the effects of vitamin D on 46,282 postmenopausal women with colorectal cancer, while monitoring the women over a long period of time. Rossouw’s team found “absolutely no indication of an effect of calcium or vitamin D [on cancer] — zero.”
With such conflicting data emerging on vitamin D and colorectal cancer, no wonder leaders such as Lichtenfeld are taking a step back to see if they might be missing part of the vitamin D puzzle.
Such contradictions may also be why, with good reason, Lichtenfeld appears to be taking a long, hard, look at how several other studies on vitamin D have been conducted, with a keen eye towards bias.
“Many of the other studies have tried to infer vitamin D levels through a variety of means, such as asking about dietary habits or inferring a vitamin D level based on descriptions of outdoor activities.”“Many of the other studies have tried to infer vitamin D levels through a variety of means, such as asking about dietary habits or inferring a vitamin D level based on descriptions of outdoor activities,” comments Lichtenfeld. His concerns about such research methods are well-grounded, as studies attempt to infer levels of vitamin D rather than measure them are notoriously bad at coming up with accurate results.
Thus, Lichtenfeld suggests that the recent study by the National Cancer Institute, a study which found that vitamin D offers no overall benefit in fending off cancer, should bear more weight than other studies on the subject, as it was done prospectively – meaning that participants were followed looking forward, and actual blood tests were used to measure the amount of vitamin D in their blood.
Futhermore, Lichtenfeld seems to understand the urgent need for long-term studies on vitamin D. He agrees with editorialists who have suggested that it may take longer than 6-12 years to accurately assess the effects of vitamin D on study subjects – especially since, as he comments, it can take many years for a cancer to develop.
Those of us familiar with the Marshall Protocol wholeheartedly agree with Lichtenfeld in this regard. It’s clear that future studies on vitamin D and cancer will have to follow their subjects for at least a decade or two in order to accurately gauge the relationship between intake of the secosteroid and cancer rates. If such studies actually take place, they will almost certainly highlight the drawbacks of vitamin D rather than any purported “benefits”, as the negative consequences of immunosuppression become increasingly apparent over longer periods of time.
Lichtenfeld proceeds to comment on several editorials written in response to the National Cancer Institute study, arguing they “point out that we need to know more about how vitamin D levels change from season to season, and how that impacts our health.”
He also warns readers to heed the following editorial comment, stating that he “couldn’t agree more” with their conclusions:
“Whether vitamin D reduces cancer risks and, if it does, whether these amounts suffice are actively being debated. Randomized clinical trials of the effects of vitamin D on the incidence of colonic polyps and invasive cancer are needed. While vitamin D may well have multiple benefits beyond bone, health professionals and the public should not in a rush to assume, in a rush to judgment, that vitamin D is a magic bullet and consume high amounts of vitamin D. More definitive data on both benefits and potential adverse effects of high doses are urgently needed.”
Indeed, Lichtenfeld seems wise enough to have realized that treatment options that are suspiciously simplistic enough to be dubbed “magic bullets” have seldom if ever held up to medical scrutiny, especially when researchers start to examine the substance at the molecular level.
“When the studies were actually done, we discovered that the vitamins had either no effect or, for some people, may have actually increased their risk of cancer.”“We have consistently called for more research into this topic [vitamin D],” he argues. This is especially important given our past experience with other vitamins, such as vitamin C and beta-carotene, where well-qualified experts touted the benefit of those vitamins in reducing cancer risk. When the studies were actually done, we discovered that the vitamins had either no effect or, for some people, may have actually increased their risk of cancer.”
As with any other blog, readers are able to write responses to Dr. Lichtenfeld’s pieces. The very first person to respond to “Maybe Vitamin D isn’t the Answer After All” was none other then Dr. Jacob Cannell – head of the “Vitamin D Council” – an organization that seeks to promote the consumption of vitamin D, and when I say promote I mean promote. Although the group presents itself as a scientific body, even a quick glance at their website assures the reader that the members of this Council have failed to read, evaluate, or even consider any of the alternate hypotheses proposed about vitamin D – hypotheses based on research that clearly show that extra levels of the secosteroid are harming rather than helping people with chronic disease.
“Perhaps you could explain what residual confounding is?” writes a livid Dr. Cannell. “If so, your readers might feel you fully understand the study. What was the relative risk of breast cancer? I know the sample size was too small for signifigance [sic] but you might want to say what it was? Is it true that the relative risk of breast cancer was almost four times higher in the group with the lower levels?…..What you are actually doing is defending the American Cancer Society’s decision not to follow the Canadian Cancer Society’s recommendation of 1000 IU per day of vitamin D. Say you are wrong and Canada is right? On whose hands will that blood be?”
Apparently for the Vitamin D Council, this is what passes for professional discourse.
Lichtenfeld kept his cool, responding, “What Dr. Cannell has not said is that similar circumstances in the past–with other vitamins that were thought to be harmless and able to reduce the risk of cancer–showed evidence of harm and/or lack of efficacy when subjected to appropriate study. To say that my opinion is equivalent to having blood on my hands is an ad hominem attack not worthy of consideration. His cause would be better served to advocate on behalf of people who need to be screened for colorectal cancer (which would save thousands of lives, based on solid evidence), and join us in encouraging appropriate review of the data and research to definitively answer the issue at hand.”
Lichtenfeld then ended the discussion with a statement that just about sums up one of the biggest problems to result from the fact that the public is getting their information about vitamin D straight from the mouths of people like Cannell, stating:
““When we succumb to making every medical decision solely on the basis of the strongest advocate’s voice, we run the risk of moving medical practice back into an era similar to that from which we are trying to emerge.”“When we succumb to making every medical decision solely on the basis of the strongest advocate’s voice, we run the risk of moving medical practice back into an era similar to that from which we are trying to emerge. If the review and research studies confirm Dr. Cannell’s position, that will be welcome. But we need to once and for all establish the science-based evidence that will conclusively answer the question one way or the other, rather than relying on advocacy to establish dietary and medical practice recommendations for the world.”
At about the same time that Lichtenfeld was advising the public to wait for more research before popping extra vitamin D supplements, author Steven Strauss was addressing similar issues in an entry published on the CBC News blog. To me, it is a remarkable piece, because it comes from one of the few voices that actually says in the midst of what can only be described as vitamin D hysteria, “Hey, wait a minute.” In his online bio, Strauss expresses admiration for the motto of Austrian writer Karl Kraus – “Say what is.” I think it’s pretty clear that Strauss does just that.
Strauss begins his discussion of vitamin D by describing the pressures put not only on himself, but on the average Canadian citizen to purchase vitamin D. “It’s been cold and remarkably un-sunny in my neck of Canada recently — climatic conditions which I have been repeatedly told in the past year should lead me to start scarfing down vitamin D pills, and do it in amounts which likely exceed Health Canada’s daily recommended dosage,” he writes.
Along with his fellow citizens, he’s also been urged by numerous vitamin D advocates – who might be better characterized as zealots – to ignore the Canadian government’s requirements about vitamin D. These advocates, who include researchers such as Reinhold Vieth, Michael Hollick and Cedric Garland, have encouraged Canadian citizens to “strike out on a vitamin D health path of their own” by taking five times the amount of vitamin D suggested by the government.
“And if I don’t, it is my fault — well ‘my’ as in all the media — if you readers get cancer, multiple sclerosis, flu, autism, depression, diabetes, loose teeth, stroke, heart disease, osteoporosis, fractures and God knows what else,” remarks Strauss.
Strauss’ comment is laced with sarcasm as he is well aware of an editorial published last year in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in which 15 of the top vitamin D proponents from around the world scolded journalists for not encouraging the public to consume the high amounts of vitamin D recommended by… themselves.
“Well, one should take this kind of criticism to heart,” remarks Strauss. Indeed, the situation caused Strauss to examine other papers on vitamin D.
Among these papers was a study by researchers at Creighton Univerisity in Nebraska, one of the papers cited by the Canadian government in an effort to rationalize its decision to recommend that people in Canada take much more — upwards of two-and-a-half times today’s recommended 400 International Units — vitamin D on a daily basis.
The study, which looked at the cancer rates of women taking vitamin D, taking calcium without vitamin D, or taking nothing over a four year period reported a 60 per cent decrease in collective cancer rates for the vitamin D takers when they took what was something more than twice the currently recommended dosage.
When Strauss took a better look at the study, he wasn’t pleased with what he discovered. Now, I would like to share with my readers an extended portion of Strauss’s post, in his own words, starting with his discussion of the Creighton study. The following is reproduced from the CBC Canada site. Strauss’s argument is too cogent, too compelling, not to share it.
In one letter, three scientists in Texas pointed out a number of issues, not the least of which being an Iowa study which suggested that when breast cancer was looked at there was indeed a fall in cancer numbers for the first five years when a vitamin D supplement was taken. But this balanced out at 10 years and there actually seemed to be more breast cancers among women taking vitamin D after 15 years.
“It is precisely these sorts of yes/no/maybe results that make science and medical writers very, very, very, very cautious about blithely recommending dose rate increases.”It is precisely these sorts of yes/no/maybe results that make science and medical writers very, very, very, very cautious about blithely recommending dose rate increases.
Then there were the questions raised by Manish Sood of the Toronto General Hospital and Amy Sood of the University of Toronto faculty of pharmacy. They pointed out that some had suggested the incidence of heart disease might grow as a result of increasing the vitamin D dosages and recommending, as the CCS did, that supplements be taken year round or during fall and winter months depending on skin colour and other factors.
In light of the CCS recommendation and a possible heart disease side-effect, they concluded their letter saying: “As Canadians, we ask the question — have we just traded one problem for another?”
Sounds reasonable, but their concern was brushed back by paper authors Robert Heaney and Joan Lappe of Creighton, who responded that there is no evidence of heart problems with vitamin D doses up to 10 times what they had given people. They added, “The issue of vitamin D toxicity was exhaustively reviewed in this Journal just a few months ago and Sood and Sood may find some reassurance in that report.”
Given this disagreement I, too, needed reassurance and so I went to the review where I found something very non-reassuring. Heaney and Vieth had co-authored the toxicity study with two employees of the Council For Responsible Nutrition, a Washington D.C.-based lobby group and trade association for ingredient suppliers and manufacturers in the dietary supplement industry — that is to say, the official representatives of the people who would make vitamin D.
“Ultimately what the four wrote looks extremely authoritative, and might well be so, but to my mind this collaboration represents not an apparent conflict of interest, but a genuine conflict of interest.”And their roles were anything but minor. One applied “risk assessment methodology” to the results and the other “searched literature and summarized relevant findings.” Ultimately what the four wrote looks extremely authoritative, and might well be so, but to my mind this collaboration represents not an apparent conflict of interest, but a genuine conflict of interest.
And let me explain it with a simple equation. Let us assume that one-third of the people in North America decide, based on the CCS recommendation, to more than double their vitamin D dosage and this costs a bare $20 per person a year. That translates into an extra $2 billion going to vitamin D manufacturers and sellers.
All of this made me go back to the original Creighton paper and look to see if there was any indication of specific conflicts of interest among the researchers in it. The paper says no, with resounding vehemence: “None of the authors was affiliated in any way with an entity involved in the manufacture or marketing of vitamin D.”
Then it goes on to mention that one author, Robert Recker, was on the scientific advisory boards of Roche and Proctor & Gamble, and Heaney was on the scientific advisory board for the International Dairy Food Association and the speaker’s bureau for P & G.
It’s true that Roche doesn’t make vitamins today — but it sold the business in 2003, a time that the Creighton experiment was ongoing. The sale, by the way, was announced at the same time Roche said it had resolved lawsuits growing out of its involvement in vitamin price fixing.
But Proctor remains in the business, in that it has licensed its Olay name to another company to produce Olay vitamins, which include vitamin D in a multivitamin supplement. Not to mention the fact that Heaney reported in 2006 that he had a “financial relationship with SmithKlineGlaxo” — a company which directly produces vitamin D.
And oh, yes, it seems almost everyone doing vitamin D research — Vieth included — gets money from dairy farmers associations in either Canada or the U.S.
So I sent Recker and Heaney an e-mail asking for an explanation and Recker responded: “Neither Dr. Heaney nor I have any affiliation with the company that supplied the vitamin D for the study. We have not had affiliation with the vitamin D work for the companies you mention. I have been a scientific adviser to Roche, P & G and Smith-Kline-Glaxo, but not in their vitamin D work.”
Interestingly finely parsed, but when I Google “Recker and Glaxo” I find him quoted in a company press release endorsing an osteoporosis website the company supports — a site that advocates taking vitamin D and which points out that if you have problems getting it naturally, you can buy supplements that will fill in the gap.
Recker responded in his e-mail to me that, “I do not include the statement in the press release as a potential conflict of interest since I was not making the statement out of any affiliation with GSK. I have not participated in any of the studies nor in any advisory capacity to GSK regarding any vitamin D product. There is often some confusion about what constitutes a potential conflict of interest, as might be the case here. My institution does not require that I list this as a potential conflict of interest in its management of faculty relations with industry.”
Parsing a parse, if you ask me.
I then had a lengthy discussion with Vieth who quite candidly said he had been delighted to join up with the manufacturers’ association employees in the toxicity review paper because he had long admired them for being good scientists. “I was honoured when they asked,” he told me.
As to money conflicts he doesn’t think that was a big issue because vitamin D is a generic product and can be made for very little. He said the pure form of the substance costs about $3,000 a kilogram to make, a figure that translates into the dose each of the women in Nebraska took to ward off cancer costing about 3.5 cents a year to make.
Then he told me he had been angered when his name had been taken off some scientific papers after he, in complete openness, told agencies and journals that he and his wife have set up a vitamin D company in Toronto called Ddrops Inc. She is now the company’s president and it sells a year’s supply of 1,000 IU liquid vitamin D for about $20. “I was told my name was being taken off papers because of my wife’s occupation. That is something I find infuriating and upsetting,” he said.
A little additional research found that Elaine Vieth has told the Hamilton Spectator that pharmacies initially had little interest in selling her product, which can be sprinkled on food or in drinks, but that after the Creighton cancer study appeared she sold 30,000 bottles within two days.
“I am not often struck speechless by life’s contradictions, but here I am. ”Who would have thought that the research pertaining to what Ddrops markets as “the sunshine vitamin in just one drop” could be so conflicted?
Nonetheless, let me be absolutely clear. I cannot say that any of the findings of any of the researchers I cite — particularly when it comes to vitamin D’s cancer preventative effects — are erroneous because of the scientists’ commercial connections. Vitamin D may indeed turn out to be the next best thing since free e-mail and ballpoint pens, but I will say that a careful journalist, a prudent journalist, a wise journalist would look at this tangled mess of conflicted interests and results and proceed exceedingly carefully in promoting a massive change in vitamin D dosage levels.
I will say that Health Canada should not be stampeded into doing anything reflexive when it comes to raising vitamin D dosage levels.
And I might also suggest that if university scientists are looking for a less conspiratorial explanation for their perception that media has been loath to join a crusade to raise the dosage levels, they would do well to consider how it looks to outside observers when researchers blithely associate with those who benefit financially from these changes.
And that advice is good on both the sunniest and the cloudiest of days.
In Strauss’ case, an inflamed Vieth wrote back in response to the piece, arguing that. “Is there any conceivable way that a new discovery in nutrition, health or therapeutics could make a difference to the public without involving a commercial interest? Compared to the private sector, government agencies usually move at a snail’s pace. If vitamin D is the example being discussed, then it is foolish to imagine that government will reflect anything newer than what was known ten years ago. Government does not make products for consumers. There can be no progress without the private sector.”
I beg to differ. Mixing commercialism with science is a dangerous endeavor, one that is sure to mislead the public with biased opinions and deliberately cheerful results. It’s the attitude Vieth describes above that has taken the public to the place they are now. They are a group sadly misled by a handful of researchers who zealously advocate for their preconceived beliefs, while refusing to acknowledge even the most valid of scientific research if it proves them wrong.
45 Responses for "Voices of reason in the vitamin D debate"
Thank you, Amy, for again bring the debate of Vitamin D to the forefront with yet another prestigious voice.
Since being an advocate and supporter for the local chapter of the American Cancer Society, it is very encouraging to read that Dr. Lichtenfeld is not following the trend in blindly promoting this secosteroid. Last year when I shared Dr. Marshall’s scientific discoveries with our local ACS director, he was quite interested in the “other side” of the D story. Hopefully, Dr. Len’s opinions and actions in not supporting the blanket supplementation of D will be soon respected.
Thankfully with your efforts, Amy, you are also helping the skeptical to better understand why Dr. Marshall’s “Voice of Reason in the D Debate” is the scientific solution to today’s health crisis.
This may be of interest to you during your research .. My family have had numerous health problem after being exposed chronically to Hexavalent Chromium . Airborne , after living near a spray painting booth that painted cars. Chromium levels found in our urine quite high All members had numerous mutisystemic disease. Since leaving the area our health improved as far as symptoms however all have developed pancreatic problems and bowel disorders as well as neurological disordersand food and chemical allegies all have found to have deficent levels of vitamin d even though we appear to have normal calcium leels in our blood. We are now on supplements and our health is improving ,pain levels our dropping. Vitamin d seems to play a vital part in this. We spend a lot of time in the sun and dont wear suncreams as such and have plenty of vitamin d in our diet.Our doctors didnt look at our vitamin d levels at all and only recently looked at them after skeletal problems were deteriorating.
Hi Barbara,
I’m so sorry to hear that you family was exposed to Hexavalent Chromium, and of course I’m not surprised to hear that you are all starting to suffer from various forms of chronic illness.
If you want to hear my perpective on why you and your family members are developing allergies, bowel disorders etc. I would say that Hexavalent Chromium disables the immune system in some way. That, and if definitely greatly weakens anyone who is exposed to it, causing the immune system to work less effectively.
Thus, after your exposure to the substance, I have little doubt that your immune function plummeted. It seems that after that point, you were able to easily pick up the bacteria that cause chronic inflammatory disease. As described on the other articles on this site, we now understand that chronic inflammatiory diseases including pancreatic problems, allergies, neurological disorders and any sort of senstitivities are caused by a large and diverse microbiota of chronic ideopathic biofilm and L-form bacteria.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, it seems that the Chromium hurt your immune systems and weakened your bodies to the point where you can now more easily acquire these pathogens which, in my opinion, is why you are and your family are now developing diseases linked to a bacterial cause.
This view is confirmed by the fact that you are all considered to be “deficient” in vitamin D. Those of us familiar with the MP understand that a low level of viatmin D is not a sign of defiency (not CAUSING the disease process), but is actually a RESULT of the disease process. Essentially when the activie form of viatmin D rises as a result of bacterial-induced inflammation it naturally downregulates, through a receptor called the PXR, the body’s level os 25-D. 25-D is the vitamin D metabolite doctors now test to determine what they incorrectly label as “deficiency.” This article describes this phenomenon in greater detail.
“Chronically ill people are not deficient in vitamin D”
http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/#3
So from an MP viewpoint, a low level of vitamin D strongly indicates that you are infected with the chronic bacteria that cause inflammatory disease and that they are dysregulating your vitamin D metabolism.
Because it seems like the Chromium has predisposed you and your family to acquire the chronic bacterial forms that cause a plethora of diseases, you and your family do stand to benefit from the MP.
Of course the MP can’t reverse the effects of the Chromium (and I don’t know exactly what those are) but I do believe it can kill the bacteria causing many of your symptoms and diseases.
It’s definitely worth a try. If you have more questions about the MP, the best place to ask them is at the following website:
http://www.curemyth1.org Th1 refers to disease caused by bacteria, hence the name Cure My Th1. Your questions will be answered free of charge by patient advoates.
Best.
Amy
I think this reply to Grant (a big vitamin D proponent) by Dr. Lucas, from the World Health Organization replies very nicely to the claims regarding cancer and vitamin D made by some people.
This brief summary shows the latitudinal and sun exposure data is full of wholes and mentions the two studies showing higher cancer rates when 25D was at higher levels:
https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/85/5/06-039446/en/
Joyce Waterhouse
I have only just stumbled onto this site and have had an ever worsening chronic disease like symptomology that has evaded diagnosis after diagnosis. I have had equivocal responses in various antibody tests, like ehricliosis and Epstein-Barr (which I did have full-blown in my twenties) and have lots of parachymal scarring in my lungs (but, I’m a former smoker). The problem has progressed to strange back sensations with dyspenia and tightness or malaise of the chest (and back). Interestingly I started taking D-3 supplementation some months ago. I also have taken large amounts of fish oils and even flax oil. I have much joint pain that seems to worsen and unbelievable brain fog. Are fish oils also implicated? Amy, from my brief review of this site, I am greatly impressed by your mission and research. If I wanted to start at the basics and move through the empirical data and the drawn conclusions step by step…could you recommend a branched path to educate myself?
Hi Richard,
I’m very glad you found this site and I’m happy that you are interested in the MP. That’s because I definitely think the treatment has the potential to reverse your symptoms.
We now understand that chronic inflammatory diseases are caused by an intraphagocytic, metagenomic microbiota of bacteria. There are many, many species of these bacteria which greatly overlap in people who have different diseases.
So in our view, it doesn’t matter if you have a specific diagnosis. Your symptoms and disease history strongly indicate that you are infected with these pathogens and that you can effectively kill them with the MP.
I would definitely stop the vitamin D supplements immediately. Fish oil is very high in vitamin D and is suppressing the activity of your innate immune system just as effectively as your supplements. Right now, the worst thing you can do is continue to take any forms vitamin D, which will only weaken your immune response and allow your bacteria to spread with greater ease. If you need more info on vitamin D, be sure to read this article:
http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/
When it comes to learning more about the MP, the key is to read, read, read! Read all the pieces on this site. Citations for the information presented in each piece are at the end of each article. Then read all the information you can on the Marshall Protocol study site itself:
http://www.marshallprotocol.com (The “essential information sections and FAQ sections are good places to start).
You may also want to look over Dr. Marshall’s published papers and presentations. I particularly recommend watching his AAEM and Bio21 presentations.
http://www.trevormarshall.com/papers.htm
After completing such reading you can ask questions about the MP at the following website:
http://www.curemyth1.org (Th1 refers to disease caused by bacteria, hence the name Cure My Th1). The patient advocates on the site will answer your questions free of charge.
However, I should let you know that at the moment, the MP study is closed to new members as there are too many people who want to start it and not enough staff to manage their care.
But, you can ask the moderators as http://www.curmyth1.org if you can be put on a waiting list. Being on the list will allow you to eventually get accepted into the treatment as they are letting new people in at regular intervals.
So I highly recommend that you try to get on the waiting list as soon if you decide that you’d like to do the MP.
Good luck!
Amy
The
Amy, thank you for responding so promptly and completely. If your current level of productivity and engagement with molecular biology is any indication of your own recovery–I am very psyched about the possibility of a similar trajectory for me (although I’m several decades older than you and probably much more cynical).
Aside from the 16 hours of sleep I ocassionally need and the nagging joint pain, chest discomfort, etc. my biggest peeve is cognitive. Some days, I feel my IQ to be down 20 points (maybe it tracks the stock market…), other times my concentration is splintered and not capable of any duration of focus. Of course there’s depression and the rest of that rot, so it’s like a spiritual and physical leak.
I’m going to start reading and I have an appointment with the pulmonary doctor next week–I hope I’ll be up a little bit on the literature before the next CAT scan (my third, maybe I should treat them like birthdays. There’s probably an inverse relationship there between the two, so I hope this will be the last one).
Knowing that you had CFS (and having had active mono for 9 months), I find your energy level amazing. You are very formidable. Thanks, again.
Richard
Yes, I am feeling vastly better than before. The fact that I had to
rest in bed doing nothing at all for three years has made me all the
more ambitious as I regain the ability to write, travel, and spend
time with friends again. So I’m as active as I can possibly be.
I have found that my cognitive symptoms respond very well to the MP.
In fact, I feel they improved even quicker than my physical symptoms.
Of course I had to deal with a good deal of brain immunopathology
first, before they improved. Right now I’m studying for the GRE in
order to apply to grad school and it’s nice to get the problems right!
My years of college (in terms of coursework) just seem like a blur as
I retained very little.
I recently gave a presentation about cognitive dysfunction in women
with CFS at the Days Of Molecular Modeling Conference in Karolinska.
Although it focuses on women, most of the mechanisms (besides what
happens during pregnancy!) also apply to men. This article describes
that presentation in more detail.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/03/09/cognitive-dysfunction/
I’m so glad you plan to read more about MP and possibly pursue it as a
treatment option!
Best,
Hi Amy,
well, I just read the cognitive dysfunction article. Good work! I too have had a noticeable increase in dyslexia and dyscalculia. The PKA hypothesis concerning memory performance makes sense to me. I have to go back to school on AMP synthesis, but it all seems to fit together. It’s really a well done, professional quality study, I mean post-doc stuff, and you ought to get a full scholorship into the grad school of your choice.
I’m still trying to contextually fit it all in to my primitive understanding of cell-mediated immunity–interestingly, in my own case, I have had strange T3 and T1 inversions, which only makes me more inclined to think that I am overburdened with these CWD pests, given my involuting thymus gland’s role in the process of VDR impairment.
I’m probably going to just read all weekend, because I feel so bad physically. I’ll keep quiet until I’ve integrated more of the materials on your site. But thanks. Informative, inspirational and good science, to boot!
Richard
Hi Richard,
Good to hear from you. I’m sorry to hear you are feeling so physically bad, but I’m glad you still have a little energy left to read.
It’s seems like you have a good grasp of the VDR/AMP/nuclear receptor dysfunction that goes on as people accumulate the Th1 pathogens.
Yes, it does make sense that an infected thymus would lead to dyregulated T cell levels. I’m sure you’ll notice immunopathology in the organ if you start the MP.
As you have realized now there’s a lot of science to digest in order to fully understand the MP. Glad my site can be of help as a place to find reading material.
Best,
Amy
There’s some research which shows that people with fibromyalgia have some trouble producing human growth hormone, and also that they have trouble entering deep sleep where human growth hormone is typically produced.
There’s research showing that 1,25 D3 inhibits the production of human Growth Hormone link
Excess 1,25 D3 due to pathogenic VDR dysregulation is consistent with Trevor Marshall’s ideas.
But I can’t find any citation which says that suppression of human growth hormone in Fibromyalgia patients might be due to heightened levels of 1,25 D3.
Wikipedia isn’t going to accept the connection based on my say-so. I’m sure the link between VDR dysregulation and hGH production can’t be original to myself, but I’m having trouble citing someone else who has already made the observation. Could you help?
Thanks!
Wow- my third post here at bacteriality.com in the same day! Amy, I hope you don’t think I came to your site to take cheap potshots (I didn’t!), but I have to comment on this:
Dr. Jacob Cannell quote-
“What you are actually doing is defending the American Cancer Society’s decision not to follow the Canadian Cancer Society’s recommendation of 1000 IU per day of vitamin D. Say you are wrong and Canada is right? On whose hands will that blood be?”
..and Amy’s comment-
“Apparently for the Vitamin D Council, this is what passes for professional discourse.”
In all fairness, Cannell’s dramatic statement is the sort of thing I’ve read numerous times coming from Trevor Marshall. I mention this to point out that all of us get pretty passionate about our respective beliefs. The words seem justified when you agree with the individual, but a tad nutty when you don’t.
Hi Nigel,
No, I don’t believe that comparison is accurate. While Marshall has been known to come off as overly mean or bold on comments on the MP site he has never (to my knowledge) made such a comment to the head of a well respected institution.
Marshall’s critical comments are usually directed to people who challenge the integrity of the MP site and are usually an attempt to put an end to a discussion that could accidentally mislead others on the protocol.
Furthermore, I know that Dr. Marshall has made a considerable effort to work on his tone. I haven’t seen him lash out in a comment for quite some time now and you’ll notice his responses are quite professional, even to random people on the MP site that even I might respond to in a more aggressive tone.
The difference between Marshall and Cannell is that while Marshall may have made some passionate comments in the past, he’s largely eliminated the bacterial load in his head and is now much more calm and composed then when he started posting about the MP several years back.
In contrast, Cannell is taking copious quantities of the vitamin D he promotes and is allowing the chronic bacteria that lead to anger spells and uncontrollable emotions to proliferate.
So particularly these days, I don’t think the two can be compared at all.
Best,
Amy
Wow. I was starting to believe that you were looking at the Marshall Protocol through unbiased eyes, but you blew that away with this response. Respect works both ways.
John,
What can I say?
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.
Amy
I am confused… the vitamin D studies with low doses of vitamin d seem to show no benefit (on bone, cancer, etc) and the studies that give higher vitamin D often show benefit. What are your thoughts on this?
How do these finding fit into MP theory? Maybe low doses of vitamin d help the bacteria to survive… but high doses could be harmful to the bacteria?
What do you think about all of the immune reviews about vitaminD on pubmed from 2007 through 2008? I don’t get alot of it – alphabet soup! Th1 and Th2 and CD and cytokines are confusing but it seems like they disagree with MP.
I live up north and have kept my vitamin d down but my joints ache, I’m having a relapse (autoimmune disease)… well, I guess I’m starting to wonder about whether MP is right for me. My doctor says he can’t test for the bacteria in the cells. Is that right?
Thank you very much in advance for your help,
G.
Hi Georgia,
I know that the latest research on vitamin D contradicts much of what you are used to hearing by the media and must seem confusing at first.
The following article describes 14 misconceptions about vitamin D and how they are interpreted in the light of new research on vitamin D published by biomedical Trevor Marshall. I think the piece should answer many of your questions.
http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/
I also recommend you continue to read articles on this site and on the following website to learn more about new perspectives on vitamin D:
http://www.marshallprotocol.com
If your doctor wants access to papers and presentations on the dangers of vitamin D supplementation they can be found here:
http://mpkb.org/doku.php?id=home:publications:home
Best,
Amy
Is there a reference for the Iowa study that suggests breast cancer increasing in women taking Vitamin D after 15 years? It wasn’t on the CBC page.
Immunosuppressive action of vitamin D right there, it would be interesting to follow up.
Sorry for replying to my own post, but in case anyone else is interested I think the study in question is “Vitamin D intake and breast cancer risk in postmenopausal women: the Iowa Women’s Health Study.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17549593
Dear Amy, I just found this wonderful website through a health forum and would like to know what the guide lines are for healthy people regarding sun exposure and eating foods that contain vitamin D, such as wild salmon and eggs. How do I know I am getting the appropriate amount to support a strong immune system and general health? I mean, we all do need some vitamin D. How much is enough and can we measure this? If I understand correctly, the 25-D levels don’t say much. Low levels can mean disease leading to low levels. On the other hand the levels are supposed to be below 20ug/ml to avoid suppression of the immune system anyhow. So, should I just make sure I stay below that? Is it necessary to get tested if not taking high amounts of supplemental vitamin D?
Hi Monica,
My advice to healthy people regarding vitamin D intake is to consume only that vitamin D that nature intended people to consume. Studies have been done that test the 25-D levels of people who live in cultures where the food chain is not fortified with D and who obtain average amounts of sunlight. Their 25-D levels are generally under 20 ng/ml. That’s a good target number.
Can 25-D levels get too low? We have patients on the MP with very low vitamin D levels who’s immune systems are functioning optimally. But there is no need to reduce you level much below 15-20 ng/ml if you don’t have a chronic disease (it’s the vitamin D dysregulation and bacterial blockage of the VDR that necessitates such lowering among MP patients).
That goes back to just eating only non-fortified foods. Eat a well-rounded diet without supplemental vitamin D and I don’t think you’ll have a problem keeping your 25-D under 20 ng/ml. As for sun, get moderate exposure – whatever would be considered safe to avoid accelerating skin cancer risk.
I’m not sure you have to worry about testing your 25-D too often if you are not eating fortified foods. I would definitely test it if you start to feel any chronic symptoms that might be related to Th1 disease as then the value becomes more important. However, if you have insurance that will cover the blood test, then you may want to test 25-D every so often just for curiosity. Just make sure your doctor understands Dr. Marshall’s work and doesn’t try to diagnose you with vitamin D “deficiency” or tell you to supplement with D because your level is too “low.”
So no need to stress about vitamin D if you are healthy. Eat the vitamin D nature intended you to consume and enjoy moderate sunlight.
Best,
Amy
PS Food producers often sneak in D when you don’t expect it. Check all you cereals, yogurt and cheese very well. Instead of drinking milk, I water-down half and half which is not fortified with D. It tastes pretty good, IMO. So beware of hidden D!
I just wanted to share this article that I wrote and was recently published in the online Townsend Letter. It reviews the MP and some of the recent literature, including cancer literature, including studies showing negative effects of higher 25-D levels.
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm
Thank you so much Amy. Your advise has been very helpful. I don’t eat fortified foods since I basically stick with unprocessed foods anyhow. Plain oatmeal (no boxed cereals) and I don’t drink milk (I love hemp protein in my oatmeal for added protein). I also don’t like salmon which is very high in vitamin D (especially the wild kind).
I have two more questions that came to mind please:
1. I have just finished taking 5000 IU vitamin D for six weeks (until I found your information very recently – I thought I was doing a great thing LOL). Is this something to worry about? Is there a way to get the vitamin D out of my body quicker? At least it is still winter so I don’t get any sun. On the other hand I believe the half time is around 4-5 months of supplemental vitamin D, unlike the one our bodies makes which is around 4-6 weeks?
2. I have always taken a good multi vitamin amongst other supplements and would like to continue to do so. Of course, it has 400 IU vitamin D. Is this small amount okay if its ALL I consume?
Thanks again for all you do!!
Monica
Hi Monica,
Yikes, I can’t believe your doctor put you on 5000 IUs! That aside, six weeks is a very, very, very short time in the development of a chronic disease. I wouldn’t worry about what you’ve already taken. Unfortunately there is no way to get vitamin D out of the body quickly. Also, it’s a fat soluble “vitamin” so it will remain in your tissues for about 3-6 months.
This means that if you don’t see your 25-D levels coming back down all that soon don’t worry, it’s going to take a while. In order to counteract the high levels of vitamin D you have in your system now, you may want to be extra careful about getting any more vitamin D. At least for the next 3-6 months you may want to avoid mushrooms which are very high in D and any other fatty fish besides salmon.
About the multivitamin – yes those 400 IUs are going to add up, and fast. Since you already have too much vitamin D in your system I definitely recommend stopping it and not taking it anymore even after your D levels get lower. For every study saying that a multivitamin might increase health there is one that stating it does the opposite. Multivitamins have been largely marketed by supplement companies who, not surprisingly…want to make money. What’s better than making people feel like they should take their pill for the rest of their lives?
Much research shows that the best way to get the nutrients you need is to eat a healthy, well-rounded diet. If you dislike a food group for some reason (let’s say dairy) then take a calcium supplement. But there is no need to supplement across the board when you are getting sufficient levels of most nutrients from food. I would strive to eat as well as you can and make that your priority instead of taking the multivitamin.
Best,
Amy
If you really want to continue taking a mutlvitamin, this company makes custom vitamins:
http://www.mitamins.com
Their number is 1-866-585-1390, but I’m not sure how much their vitamins cost!
Thank you very much Amy!!
No problem Monica!
Hi Amy,
Here is the link to the complete article mentioned by Strauss:
Vitamin D and calcium supplementation reduces cancer risk: results of a randomized trial
From the Osteoporosis Research Center, Creighton University, Omaha, NE
Joan M Lappe, Dianne Travers-Gustafson, K Michael Davies, Robert R Recker and Robert P Heaney
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/6/1586
It’s primary objective was to study bone fracture in elderly women. The cancer part seems to have been an after thought. Otherwise, they would have made a category of vitamin D alone. I had to go to another one of their earlier Journal publications to get the study exclusion criteria. I question how they determined the vitamin D dose. It is not explained anywhere.
There were 19 cases of breast cancer out of a total 50 cancers yet there was no mention of genetic BC history as an exclusion factor. Also, 7 cases of lung cancer yet no mention of do/did smoke. Also, 3 cases of uterus cancer but no mention if any had prior hysterectomies. The average age of these women was 66 y/o.
These 3 categories add up to 29 cancers out of a total of 50 cases for the study.
They decided the results looked better if they dropped the first year and reported on years 2 through 4. Justification was that the first year cancers were already in progress. When they provided table 1 with cancer cases for years 2 through 4 the totals were off by 2 in both the placebo and vitamin D groups so table 1 is in error as are figures 1 & 2. They point this out in Erratum but don’t say which 2 + 2 cancers were taken out.
Conflicts of interest abound, especially Vieth’s roll in establishing the risk factors for D supplementation. His wife made $600,000 selling vitamin D in the two days after this article hit the street.
In a March 2008 letter to the editor of this same Journal, Schabas says: “…Cancer incidence in the placebo group appears to be much higher than expected on the basis of surveillance data from the Nebraska Cancer Registry… If the placebo control group had experienced cancer rates comparable with the population’s expected rates, any statically significance observed in this study would almost certainly vanish…”
Sooo, as Strauss points out, this study hit the wires touting the benefits of D to prevent all cancers. However, he is the only one to question it (along with your excellent article) and no one has yet reported on Schabas’s findings which seem to completely negate the study claims.
Gene
I just wanted to add to what Gene wrote. There were several letters to the Editor, all of which were critical of Lappe’s conclusions. I also think the point that when the first year’s data were not excluded, the calcium alone had the same results as the calcium plus D makes one wonder.
Also, one can’t know whether those getting vitamin D might have died sooner if followed longer, as this just looks at incidence, not mortality.
I discuss this topic more in the Townsend Letter article (see link above). For instance, Freedman found no effect of vitamin D levels on overall cancer death rates.
Joyce Waterhouse, Ph.D.
Amy,
U say if U dislike a particular type of nutrient let’s say dairy, then take a Calcium supplements.
Well it’s EXACTLY the opposite. SEVERAL epidemiological studies show a very sigificant correelation between consumption of dairy (From copws) and osteoporosis with other factors — latitude for ex — taken imto acct. This is likely to be due to a high ratio of P/Ca in milk, leading to leaching from bones to maintain blood ratio.
SO, if one is eating lots of dairy (from cows) one NEEDS to take more Ca than SO who is not or sticks to goat dairy (Less Phosphorus)>
Sorry i don’t have a ref handy but I have PERSONNAlly seen the graph several times and Weston a nd Price had already noticed the correlation ( I Know it’s correlation but it’s VERY compelling, a cross genetic variations, latitude other aspects of diet…)
Chris D
PS:Still very interested in MP and D controversy.
Thanks for the work U’re doing!
Hi Crispy,
I’m glad you are interested in the MP and thank you for your kind words about the site. However, while you are entitled to your own beliefs about calcium they have not influenced the MP guidelines. Those patients on the MP are still advised to get the RDA of calcium. If they don’t get the RDA from the foods they eat they can take calcium in supplemental form. We do not believe that calcium from certain cows is able to leech calcium from the bone. We also do not support the idea that phosphorous would contribute to any such process.
Best,
Amy
“The first study to actually look at the relationship between measured vitamin D in the blood and subsequent total cancer deaths, it failed to show an association between baseline vitamin D status and overall cancer risk…”
Failure to find something does not mean that it doesn’t exist… … that’s not how the scientific method works.
There is so much research out there that proves vitamin D’s role in cancer. Here are some recent studies:
The role of vitamin D in cancer prevention. Am J Public Health. 2006;96(2):252-61.
What is the dose-response relationship between vitamin D and cancer risk? Nutr Rev. 2007;65(8 Pt 2):S91-5.
Vitamin D and calcium supplementation reduces cancer risk: results of a randomized trial. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007;85(6):1586-91.
Hi Reiser,
You know, I have yet to see a pro-supplementation study which successfully addresses our two primary concerns with them:
1. A low 25-D is the result rather than the cause of many of these disease.
2. As any other immunosuppressant would, taking vitamin D gives a person a short-term benefit but long-term harm.
Best,
Paul
I’m open to the notion that long-term Vit D3 supplementation may have a harmful effect in some or all people and that there are holes in the mainstream view. However I have several concerns.
1. Originally, low 25D3 and high 1,25D3 was asserted to be evidence of blockage of the VDR receptor. This standard has been abandoned by MP advocates in favor of a ‘therapeutic probe.’ Why didn’t the projected model for VDR receptor blockage apply to many people? I agree with the assertion that some cases of low 25D3 may be an effect of chronic inflammation rather than a cause of problems. But perhaps many people with chronic inflammation don’t actually have blocked VDRs? Also along this line, some people (diabetics) have consistently low 25D3 and also low 1,25D3.
2. There were numerous attempts to equate the effect of D3 with prednisone, which is an immunosuppresant. However cathelidicin production, which shows a very strong anti-cancer effect (at least in the short term) seems a much better explanation. At the very least, it is a factor to be considered. Activation of the VDR by 1,25D3 shifts the immune response from a cell mediated one to antimicrobial peptide mediated response. Suppressed cellular immunity probably has negative effects longterm, but 1,25D3 is immunomodulatory in most people, not immunosuppressant.
3. If activation of the VDR is immunomodulatory, it will also be immunomodulatory if it is activated via Benicar meaning longterm problems will be similar to D3 supplementation in many people.
If you look at the Mayo clinic’s site, they don’t think there is proof regarding vitamin D and cancer. The connection is regarded by most reputable scientists (who are not already zealous advocates) as one that is currently being researched, not one that has been decided.
To add to what Paul said, I discuss the Lappe study in the article here (and also in posts above):
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm
Also, the dose response study is entirely based on correlation (which does not imply causation – but it commonly mistaken as doing so).
Joyce Waterhouse, Ph.D.
Ryan,
I would say that the levels of the D metabolites have not been rejected as a meaningful test. However, as with most tests, there are cases they don’t catch, hence the therapeutic probe.
See the end of this talk: http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/waterhouse_lax2006.pdf, I discuss the cases of low 1,25D. There are also other reasons for low 1,25D (e.g., lab error due to not freezing sample, HIV).
High 25-D is what is considered to be immunosuppressive by blocking the VDR. High 1,25-D that comes from a dysregulated VDR is considered to be immunosuppressive via other receptors (not the VDR, which is blocked). A certain amount of immune modulation that may occur along with the production of cathelicidin, from activating the VDR, whether via 1,25-D or Benicar is considered fine.
Some things have been learned since the earliest days of the MP, so this may have led to some confusion.
Joyce Waterhouse
Joyce – Thanks for the info. Actually, the article touched on some of the evidence that was troubling me. People associated with the MP claimed that the MP was good for fibromyalgia (which my ex-girlfriend has) but the D-metabolite profile for fibromyalgia didn’t seem to match up with a dysregulated VDR. There’s evidence of some kind of inflammation; maybe bacterial or maybe viral. How would one rule out a persistent viral infection?
I’m not sure what you mean by the evidence not matching up. Do you mean a particular person’s levels? Many people with fibromyalgia have the usual pattern of D metabolites as found in other Th1 diseases. Sometimes the values may differ, since there are many factors involved and D metabolites are not always diagnostic and then a therapeutic probe can be helpful.
For instance, sometimes the 1,25-D may not be elevated, but this does not necessarily mean the MP may not benefit them. There is lab error and there is the issue of serum 1,25-D not necessarily reflecting the level in tissues.
In any particular case I suppose one can’t necessarily rule out a viral infection being present, even if one tested for all known viruses. But even if a viral infection is present, it may respond to treatment of bacteria that the MP targets — apparently by reversing immune dysfunction. This has been found in a number of instances.
I suppose if one wants stronger evidence, one will have to wait for further research, which may be several years or more.
Joyce Waterhouse
Amy- Thank you for your site and your work. My interest in your information is two-fold. First, I have a sister who has post treatment chronic Lyme. Second, I stumbled upon Heaney, Vieth, VitaminDcouncil.org and grassrootshealth.net in my search to resolve my own scalp eczema.
I personally have only been taking higher vitamin D for about 3 weeks, but there has been a marked improvement in my scalp eczema.
I read one of the other posts here on the 14 misconceptions about Vitamin D and that 25D is actually immunosuppressive. Your information seems well referenced and very plausible, so you can understand my confusion now after having read through the information from Heaney, Vieth and others on the benefits of D3 supplementation.
It seems both sides have credible arguments and data. Yours especially seems very convincing, but I have some questions:
1. In reading your information, I saw that you have identified the bllod level at which 25D becomes immunosupressive ~32ng/ml. What basis do you have for this conclusion? I would very much like to read the actual paper this is drawn from to see the methods used in the study.
2. While your arguments seem very credible, in fact maybe more credible to me now than that from Heaney, Vieth and other D supplementation proponents, there is one logical barrier I cannot seem to get past with your arguments. We’ve evolved as humans through the millennia with this innate system for Vitamin D production from the sun. Prior to industrialization, or even civilized society, presumably hominids and early humans spent quite a lot of time out in the sun, and no doubt produced a lot of their own vitamin D. Even today, in tropical climates, studies I have seen on blood levels show them to be around 40ng/ml or higher for people who live in these areas while people from northen climes tend to have much lower levels, especially during winter. If 25D is indeed immunosuppressive, then why is there not a higher level of chronic disease and cancer, flu mortality, etc. in these tropical areas? Also, how can you explain away the seasonality of flu and the higher morbidity and mortality rates throughout the fall and winter months? I know your information says that some of these epidemiological studies showing higher incidence of some of these diseases in northern climates are technically flawed– if they are, how so?
3. With regard to the Marshall protocol, or just restriction of Vitamin D intake in general, do you have any data on long term health effects of this popultion wide, or even in specific disease states? This is one of your criticisms of Heaney/Vieth/Cannell/Vitamin D Council et al. You pose the question that since they have no real long term data, i.e. 1-2 decades or more that we cannot really know the true health implications of higher vitamin D supplementation. I would ask the same question– if you have no long term studies regarding the health implications of restricting D3 intake and thus keeping 25D levels low, we cannot really know the true health implications of that either, can we?
4. To expand on point #2, how can something that we’ve evolved with over millennia– our innate ability to produce D3 and thus 25D from the sun, and given that a human can produce nearly 10,000IU per day from sun exposure, how can it be that 25D is deleterious to us? Perhaps there is an optimal level for both sides? i.e. something below the 32 ng/ml threshhold where you suggest 25D is immunosuppressive? Or would people with certain chronic diseases need to be even lower due to the L form bacteria produced proteins also occupying the VDR? If so, how LOW should someone with chronic disease go? To undectable levels of 25D? If so, what are the health implications non related to their chronic disease? Could we help their chronic disease on one hand, but cause other problems on the other? What is the risk/benefit ratio here?
5. From reading your misconceptions on vitamin D page, it was difficult to determine if the studies done demonstrating the immunosuppressive nature of 25D above 32ng/ml were in vitro or in vivo. If they were indeed in vitro studies, is it possible that if you had isolated only the VDR in vitro and introduced 25D that the response could be markedly different than that found in vivo, with the living system and all other substances and enzymes, etc found in the human body? Or do you actually have a double blind placebo controlled study that measured baseline blood levels of anti-microbial peptides as well as baseline 25D and 1,25D levels prior to, during and after supplementation, and do you have concrete proof that 25D above 32ng/ml in humans suppresses the expression of anti-microbial peptides and actually causes their production and blood levels to go down? I don’t believe the other side (Heaney/Vieth/Cannell et al) has a study showing that the levels actually do increase. However, the case reports in facilities and patient populations where patient’s 25D levels are checked and they are supplemented to the other side’s “optimal” levels of 40-60ng/ml are interesting. It does seem like the supplemented populations have less incidence of flu infection compared to surrounding counterparts in the same facility. I know these are clearly not scientific studies, but rather observations that may not even be statistically significant, but there seems to be enough of these case reports independent of each other to show that there may be something to higher vitamin D supplementation and immunity to flu.
6. Your information points out connections of some of the researchers invovled in the D supplementation proponent studies to those in the supplement and/or dairy industries. Some of which disturbed me. However, I believe it is a fair question to ask, what kind of market exists for the Marshall Protocol (independent of the patients actually enrolled in the formal study protocol under the study’s superision), i.e. books, foods, supplements, etc? And if so, what financial benefit if any do Marshall, you and others involved in this work have to gain? Perhaps if not commercial, then maybe private and/or government grants, continued employment, etc.? Your information points out that studies have a funny way of providing the information that is sought by the funder when speaking of those done by Heaney, Vieth et al. I think it is fair to say the same about your work too– could the results of your work be driven to provide information contrary to the other side of the D argument to be different and feed an alternative market?
Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t mean to be antagonistic. From what I have read, the work you have done looks great and your motives seem genuine– perhaps more genuine than Heaney, Vieth et al. However, I am just trying to get to the truth for me and my sister and others I know that this issue can effect. Guaranteed someone is wrong on either side of this argument and no question there will be damage done. The question is, what side?
Also, you should know, I am not involved at all in supplement production or sales, though I did work for GSK for 6 years up til 2005, primarily selling antibiotics and antidepressants. I now own a business selling medical software– completely unrelated to pharma or supplements. I have been a paramedic for 20 years and have a keen interest in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics, so that is where my medical knowledge and knowledge of study design/methods comes from.
I am really just looking for the truth, and your answers to my questions will help me to get that much closer.
Sincerely,
Bill Kelleher
Hi Bill
I share your concerns and I have similar questions.
Perhaps the debate is still open and long term effects of high level supplementation are unknown.However, clearly long term effects of vit D depletion by all means, along with use of a huge dose of a synthetic drug are unknown and the experiment could prove fatal in the worst case scenario.
After talking to 2 doctors who experimented w MP and looking at Vieth’s papers I decided NOT to try MP.
I no longer use 5000 IU Vit D but I am “religiously” taking 1000 IU/day and monitoring my blood levels to reach 50 or above (at this point it’s a matter of opinion and faith in an approach since we can see conflicting data).
I have CFIDS and Fibromyagia (Diagnosed around 1988, 21 y ago).
I am going to get more testing for Lyme (and Chlamydia) and use a natural approach if positive: Samento seems to be very effective based on recent studies (not peer-reviewed yet).
I’d love to talk to you directly about that but I believe we can’t share e-mail on the site.
I’ll try anyway giving permission to moderator to delete it if necessary.
PS:I don’t have any link with, or interest in, Vit D business.
chrisddd40@yahoo.com
I would say most of what you bring up has been covered in various articles we have written, for example, see:
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/WaterhouseAnnals2009Preprint.pdf
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm
We have confidence that in the next few years we will get the funding to do the sort of in vitro work you describe (we have plans to do much in vitro and in vivo work of various sorts).
The briefest answer is that our current data on patient responses is supportive of the in silico data as described in the above articles and others.
A couple other points that have not yet been covered are below may be relevant to your concerns (from an unpublished manuscript):
17. Skin color. The idea that white skin color evolved to allow more vitamin D production has been critiqued by Robins (48). One of several alternative explanations (49) is that white skin offers an evolutionary advantage by decreasing the risk of frostbite. A possible frostbite link has received support from the higher prevalence of frostbite in African-American soldiers in the Korean War.
18. Subtle influence of evolutionary argument. What appears in some cases to cause some researchers to give vitamin D supplementation the benefit of the doubt is the supposition that early man had high levels of 25-D due to high sun exposure. A number of problems exist with this argument, which nevertheless often has an overt or subtle effect on conclusions that are made.
First, it is currently unknown what the 25-D levels for early man were. It is highly doubtful that we can extrapolate from aboriginal people living today, for whom there is little, if any data, in any case. We can not assume that the most important time for evolutionary change related to vitamin D was even accompanied by high sun exposure, since the level of forestation was often much greater in the past and very dense forests allow little light penetration. Cases of lifeguards or other outdoor workers with high 25-D levels cited by some researchers have not been studied adequately for long-term effects on health, and in any case, they are a self-selected population.
Furthermore, even if we could know that early man had high 25-D levels, far too many things have changed to extrapolate to current needs/benefits, particularly for oral supplementation. And even if high 25-D was beneficial for ancient man, a level that may have aided reproductive success for our ancient ancestors may have little bearing on the health of people living in the type of environment we live in, with its pathogen exposures, diet, calcium intake and other factors too numerous to mention. This is particularly true for people over 60 years of age, an age that many people living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle would not even reach. Thus, it is important to take the approach of looking at the highest quality published data regarding vitamin D rather than be influenced by suppositions regarding vitamin D levels in the evolutionary past.
48) Robins AH. The Evolution of light skin color: role of vitamin D disputed. Comment in: Am J Phys Anthropol. 2009. 139(4):447-50.
(49) Juzeniene A, Setlow R, Porojnicu A, Steindal AH, Moan J. Development of different human skin colors: A review highlighting photobiological and photobiophysical aspects. J Photochem Photobio B. 2009. 96(2):93-100.
Naturally, people need to evaluate the arguments on both sides and make their own decisions about treatment.
Joyce Waterhouse, Ph.D.
Bill,
Let me get this straight – you posted your book-length comment in three places??? Not cool.
Well, anyway I responded to one of them here:
http://bacteriality.com/about-2/
Paul
Dr. Waterhouse: Thank you for your reasoned response. It is certainly more welcoming than Mr. Albert’s was to me. I posted my questions in multiple places hoping to get a variety of responses and perspectives in a timely manner. I am just a brother trying to find out more informtion to help his sister who is ill with Chronic Lyme.
Here is a reply I made to Mr. Albert’s response to me, but it contains questions I have for you after your response as well, so I will repost it here and hope I do not offend anyone. You may want to read Mr. Albert’s response to me linked above, as some of the points pertain directly to it:
I have some genuine, sincere, objective questions and I need straight forward, compassionate answers.
“As for the relative lack of data supporting our claims, we are not the ones making the non-conservative recommendation to supplement with a secosteroid.”
1. Not all cholecalciferol is converted to 25D. Some is stored. Cholecalciferol is not a secosteroid (at least I don’t think, correct me if I am wrong, it is a pre-hormone, 25D is a secosteroid after cholecalciferol is converted).
2. If your recommended level for MP people to get below is 32ng/ml, this is not what I have seen on the forums. I have seen people well under 20, even 10-12 or lower. If it is not your intention for people to go this low then there needs to be better information. If it is intended for people to go this low, I would say this is not a “conservative” recommendation– just as you say the pro-D side, I belive there is a general lack of data supporting people avoiding D until their levels are in the low teens or lower. The only data you have supporting this is ‘in silica’. This is far from ideal data to base recommendations on.
Another common theme I see in MP anecdotes is the ‘IP’ reactions that used to be referred to as ‘herx’ reactions. It seems any adverse effects from this treatment are all attributred to these ‘IP’ reactions, almost encouraging the patient that the treatment is working and to move forward, and rarely if ever attributed to side effects of medication like the high and frequent dosing of Benicar– ARB’s are known to cause low aldosterone levels, especially at higher doses and this can produce many of hte same symptoms that are being classified as ‘IP’.
Maybe the pro-D side doesn’t have as long term data as you would like, but there certainly are some long term studies. The MP has none. At least not that I am aware of. No long term, randomized, controlled trials, just anecdotes. I do not doubt that some people are getting better, but no one, not even you, Amy Proal or even Trevor Marshall can tell me or anyone else exactly why. Is it perhaps the Benicar alone? Is it the long term dosing of antibiotics alone? As some people are on MP for years, with multiple variable like changes in diet, awareness of health, fitness, etc., you simply cannot say for sure what is helping them. You have no in vitro, much less in vivo data to prove any part of the MP protocol theory. No data besides ‘in silica’ to prove Benicar activates the VDR, and likewise to prove 25D is immunosuppressive.
Further, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that your reference range for 1,25D is outdated at 45 for the upper limit. It seems more current lab tests and studies show this to be closer to 60-65.
Also, I’ve not seen any evidence in your protocol testing recommendations that takes into account the effect of calcium, PTH, Phosphate and others on 1,25D levels.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the studies I’ve seen show that levels of 25D below 20ng/ml tend to cause marked increases in PTH, which can precipitate bone loss.
To get back to a point I alluded to earlier. I’ve not seen sufficient evidence from your MP information that 25D or other inactive forms can effect the function of the VDR. Here are some references I found to support the opposite:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9398723?dopt=Abstract
This one is on the binding affinity of 25D compared to 1,25D, one showing 25D’s is at least 500x lower than 1,25D’s binding affinity for the VDR:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1084355?dopt=Abstract
I’ve heard reports of even 1000x lower, but I am still searching for an adequate reference.
To be fair, I had the common sense thought that 25D levels are many times higher in the serum versus 1,25D, given that 25D levels are measured in ng/ml and 1,25D levels are measured in pg/ml, and perhaps the relative abundance of 25D to 1,25D might overcome this binding deficit. However, when I explored this angle, it seems that 25D has a higher tendency to remain protein bound in the serum versus 1,25D by a nearly 10-fold amount. Even with ng being 1000x concentration vs pg, 25D (in ng) is about 10x more protein bound than 1,25D and 1,25D appears to have at least 500x binding affinity for the VDR than 25D, so it would seem 1,25D would win this battle– maybe this is too simplistic an assessment?
Further, I found a study on sarcoidosis where they bound radioactive 1,25D to VDR receptors on T cells. They found that 25D was not able to displace the radioactive 1,25D but that non-radioactive 1,25D was able to displace it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1646583?dopt=AbstractPlus
I cannot seem to find one study that demonstrates that 25D affects the VDR and inhibits 1,25D’s ability to turn it on. Further, correct me if I am wrong because I am just learning about all of this, but from what I have read and understand so far about the relationship between 25D and PTH, if 25D did block the activity of 1,25D on the VDR, then wouldn’t PTH levels increase? Rather, it seems that the higher 25D goes, PTH is decreased.
What I would believe is if you had a study in human volunteers that took baseline 25D, 1,25D, PTH, Calcium, and antimicrobial peptide levels at baseline, then randomized and groups to receive D supplementation at a level targeted to get 25D levels into the 40-60ng/ml range. A placebo group, and a group for D-avoidance targeting low 25D levels and see what happens to antimicrobial peptide production and perhaps other immune markers. This would show id low 25D would indeed boost immune response, allowing 1,25D to active the VDR, or perhaps show that increased 25D levels decrease AMP production or other immune markers.
Also, to allude to an earlier point, to prove MP works, you need studies with multiple arms– perhaps a benicar only arm, a low D only arm, low D + abx, Benicar + abx, etc., etc. Perhaps Benicar and abx is enough? Perhaps low D is harmful long term? (You have no long term data, certainly no where near the number of years as some of the D-supplementation studies). MP and D-Avoidance simply have not been around long enough to bear out an potential long term health effects.
Now, after all this, this is not to say I am going to go out an gob down oodles of cholecalciferol, but I don’t think I’m going to recommend my sister starve herself of sun exposure or dietary D intake either.
I also don’t mean to be at all hostile, though your email (Mr. Albert’s) to me certainly seemed to be. I am just a brother who loves his sister very much and would genuinely like to help her. I am looking for conrete answers, and any information or clarification you can provde me on the points I have made here will be most helpful. I appreciate your time and that of the other volunteers on this and other sites.
Just a few quick comments;
Joyce – I’d be careful with using data based on lifeguards, since exposure to chlorine compounds is a complicating factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_chlorine_hypothesis
(Yes, I know wikipedia isn’t authoritative. But it’s a good starting point for those who need more info.)
Bill – Be aware that the ‘in silico’ computer modeling data often referred to by supporters of the Marshall Protocol in support of the immunosuppressive properties of 25D above a certain threshold is, to the best of my knowledge, not peer reviewed.
As a side note; Production of cholecalciferol is not the only biological result of exposure to light. Sunlight can kill microbes, break down bilirubin, increase serotonin levels, and so forth.
that there may be something to higher vitamin D supplementation and immunity to flu.
I agree. For what it’s worth, I’ve known a few people who take oral cholecalciferol (D3) in response to specific temporary sicknesses like the flu and seem to have good results. I think you hit the nail on the head in that AMP levels need to be studied in various people with different 25D3 levels to see what’s actually going on. As of about a year ago, I couldn’t find any studies which really spoke to that point.
It seems to me like several different groups; those who cannot produce enough cholecalciferol, those who use up cholecalciferol too rapidly and those with a dysregulated VDR are being lumped into a single group when 25D3 is measured.
The weakest point of the dominant paradigm and the easiest to support with in vivo and in vitro studies seems to be 25D3 and its relation to heart disease. Many studies assert that high 25D3 is associated with lower cardiac risk. But D3 supplementation (particularly when K1 is suppressed and in the absence of K2 or menaquinone) can lead to arterial calcification (which would require activation of the VDR.) That does support the notion that low 25D3 in some cases is the result of an infection rather than a ‘deficiency.’ But I’m not sure whether those studies concerned levels of 25D3 high enough to test the assertion that high levels of 25D3 blocks the VDR.
HI Bill,
I was a bit harsh. Sorry for that. You really care about this, and you’re looking for answers. That’s admirable.
Best,
Paul
That first study by Heaney is one I have looked at before. If you look at the data, the graphical relationship comes from data in which the 25-D level was as high as 600 to 800 nmol/l. This is so high that I do not deem it to be physiologically relevant. I think the absorption effect may be due to some drug-like effect of the extremely high 25-D.
A more physiologically relevant observation was discussed by Peacock (see above link, NY annals paper), where their controlled trial found that the beneficial effect of calcium supplementation was blunted in those with higher 25-D.
The second, 1976 reference you mention is quite old –more current researchers state that 1,25-D is the only active metabolite. Overall, I think the modelling and our clinical data is a viable alternative to what others propose.
You are right that we don’t yet have enough corraborative data of the sort that you require, but hopefully we will in future.
If you read the article at this link: http://synergyhn.com/lesions you will see that the PTH issue isn’t nearly as simple or clear as many portray it. Look at the paper by Aloia that is discussed there. Many people have extremely low 25-D and do not have elevated PTH. If you look at his graph, they are by far the majority (probably 85%). I give an alternative explanation for the PTH — 25-D relationship that is often discussed.
If you observe the types of responses people have to Benicar, you will see that they really are not particularly similar to low aldosterone symptoms in most cases. In fact, the majority of patients feel no worse or feel considerably better on Benicar and raising the dosage of Benicar can reduce symptoms more in some patients due to its effects on receptors other than the VDR.
In those who do experience symptoms similar to hypoaldosteronism, the symptoms usually closely parallel antibiotic dosage increases rather than Benicar dosage and resolve as the treatment progresses, thus they appear to be primarily due to bacterial die-off.
Also, healthy people, typically feel no negative effect from very high dosages of Benicar and other ARBs.
As to the 32 ng/ml vs. 20 or less, I believe the 32 ng/ml was the level Dr. Marshall found that the modelling indicated the VDR blockage was more or less complete. The lower levels unblock it more and are preferred, leading to statements that you mention. You also have to consider that the VDR is also blocked by bacterial ligands, which would probably mean that an even lower 25-D level would be desirable in infected patients. In addition, Dr. Marshall has identified other means by which there is a blockage of the immune system when 25-D is high, via the very high 1,25-D levels that often occur.
Our work is so new that one isn’t likely to find adequate support in other’s work yet. For more support, I can only refer you to our data (Tom Perez’ presentation, the interviews on this site, the alumni forum on the MP site, also the case histories in part two of this article: http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/mp/townsend/Townsend_Apr07.PartOne.pdf
http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/mp/townsend/Townsend_Letter_May2007.Part2.pdf and our future work).
If you really spend time reading on the site and the above links, then you can judge whether your hypotheses that IP reactions are hypoaldosteronism and that lowering 25-D is crippling immune function are really the better explanation for patient’s responses. I don’t see how it could be consistent with the data.
Best wishes to you in your research and to your sister,
Joyce Waterhouse, PhD