11 Jun 2008
What if, rather than conferring a benefit to the digestive tract, probiotics worked by slowing the pace of bacterial die-off in organs near the gut, or even in other areas of the gut itself?
There’s been some discussion on the Marshall Protocol study site about how probiotics, or bacteria that are believed to beneficially improve bacterial composition in the gut, may be palliating symptoms but not improving overall health. This probably seems ludicrous to people who go out of their way to buy yogurt with “friendly” bacteria such as acidophilis, or people who dig into their savings to buy probiotics in numerous forms including little silver pearls.
And yet consider this hypothesis. Whereas it used to be believed that the adaptive immune system dictated the immune response in the gut, recent research has made it clear that the innate immune system - which is active inside the villi of the intestines and stomach - is actually largely responsible for keeping gut bacteria in check.
So when bacteria enter the body – whether described as “friendly” or pathogenic – the innate immune system mounts a response to their presence. That’s its job. It’s as if the innate immune system is a bouncer at a club who must check the ID of each person who wishes to enter.
The response or challenge that the innate immune system mounts towards every bacterium entering the GI track causes the production of inflammatory cytokines and chemokines. According to Marshall, part of this inflammatory response may cause a migration of white blood cells called monocytes from nearby organs of the body, or other parts of the gut, to the area of the GI track where they can face incoming probiotics.
Think about how this response might affect the liver, the pancreas, the kidneys, or even different areas of the gut. Since monocytes engulf bacteria and play an important role in killing the chronic intraphagocytic bacteria that cause inflammatory disease (collectively called the Th1 pathogens), if the white blood cells leave these organs in order to face probiotic bacteria entering the gut, the rate of bacterial die-off in these nearby organs should tone down or subside.
Since we now understand that it is the death of the Th1 pathogens that cause the bulk of a person’s symptoms (inflammatory cytokines and toxins are released when they die), the result of this reduced bacterial die-off should generate a feeling of temporary wellness in these other organs, organs that also affect digestion and detoxfication.
In the same sense, if a patient’s immune system is working to target a pocket of bacteria in one area of the gut, new probiotic bacteria may divert its attention from that area of infection to a different area of the gut, diminishing bacterial die-off in the original area.
Besides slowing the body’s response to bacterial death (known as immunopathology) in organs near the gut or areas of the gut itself, the above scenario unfortunately places an extra load on the innate immune system, which is the same branch of the immune system that works to try to keep the Th1 pathogens under control.
As previously discussed, in cases where patients are infected with Th1 pathogens, the innate immune system is constantly working hard in an attempt to kill them. But because the system must work to mount an inflammatory response each time probiotics enter the body, the ingestion of probiotic bacteria gives the already over-worked system another task, which at the same time diverts its attention away from killing the Th1 pathogens.
Even in people considered healthy, overloading the innate immune system is still a problem, since if its focus is diverted to dealing with probiotics, it may be less effective at targeting other pathogens that enter the body. Also, since people often begin to harbor the Th1 pathogens well before becoming symptomatic, any feelings of “wellness” they experience after taking probiotics may be due to the same mechanisms described above.
“We now know that the GI tract relies on the innate (Th1) immune system, and the VDR, to deal with intestinal flora,” states Marshall. “A decade ago it was thought that antibodies (the Th2 adaptive immune system) were involved. So it is certain that ingesting probiotics will place a load on the very part of the immune system already weakened by fighting Th1 inflammation in the major organs. Whether this is good or bad is open to interpretation.”
According to chronic disease physician Dr. Greg Blaney, concentrated probiotics, especially if they contain the artificial sugar Fructooligosaccharides (FOS), are most likely to affect the GI tract and surrounding organs in the manner described above. New probiotic blends with extra ingredients added may also be particularly unhelpful.
Indeed, a recent study by researchers at the University of Newcastle in Australia found that treatment with probiotics doubles levels of the inflammatory cytokine Interferon-gamma,[1] confirming that the bacteria do create a Th1 inflammatory reaction upon their entry into the gut.
“ We now know that the GI tract relies on the innate (Th1) immune system, and the VDR, to deal with intestinal flora.”Interferon-gamma also catalyses (by the action of the enzyme CYP27B1) the production of the 1,25-D – the active form of vitamin D that functions as both a hormone and a cytokine. Since the Th1 pathogens create ligands that block the VDR and subsequently dysregulate the pathway that controls CYP27B1,[2] this implies that healthy people might react differently to probiotics than people with Th1 disease, or at least be more negatively impacted by their ability to produce an inflammatory response.
This is because when enzymes such as CYP27B1 are dysregulated by VDR blockage, the body is unable to keep 1,25-D levels in the correct range. As the hormone starts to rise to unnaturally high levels, it binds many of the nuclear receptors – including the glucocorticoid receptor, the alpha/beta thyroid receptors, and the adrenal receptors - displacing the metabolites that are meant to be in the receptors under normal conditions.[3] This upsets the balance of several critical hormonal feedback pathways.
Here at Bacteriality our favorite hormone to scrutinize goes by the name of 1,25-D. So, you can understand our disappointment when we relate that, yet another group of researchers, these from U. of Newcastle, didn’t measure the 1,25-D levels of their subjects. It would have been quite interesting to note if the levels of the hormone/cytokine was higher among those subjects taking probiotics.
The above hypothesis would explain why Dutch researchers recently published a study in the Lancet which found that among patients with predicted acute pancreatitis, more than twice as many patients given probiotic supplements to prevent infection died compared to those who received placebos.[4]
“The adverse effects of probiotics noted here were unexpected,” Hein Gooszen and colleagues at the University Medical Centre Utrecht in the Netherlands wrote.
In the study of 296 people with similarly acute forms of pancreatitis, one group received a placebo and the other a mixture of probiotic supplements, some commonly available (the probiotics were administered via the mouth by a tube headed directly into the bowels). The number of people who developed infections was similar, but 24 volunteers died in the probiotic group compared to nine in the placebo group. 8 of the subjects in the group given probiotics died from bowel ischaemia, while the others succumbed to pancreatitis.
One must admit that a logical explanation for the deaths described above could be that in the case of the patients given probiotics, macrophages were diverted from areas of the bowel or pancreas where they were striving desperately to fight infection (let’s assume here that bowel ischaemia and pancreatitis are bacterial diseases). Furthermore, when the probiotics reached the GI tract, they may have put such a load on the patients’ innate immune systems that it was otherwise unable to keep their disease states under control. This study at least causes one to raise an eyebrow about the possibility that an alternate hypothesis for probiotics isn’t far fetched.
One must also consider that other explanations for how probiotics improve health remain largely speculative. For the most part, probiotics are assumed to be helpful because they offer some people temporary symptomatic relief – but as high levels of vitamin D or corticosteroids demonstrate, palliation does not always indicate improvement.
The first researcher to hypothesize that certain bacteria might play a positive role in the gut was Russian scientist and Nobel laureate Elie Metchnikoff, who, in the beginning of the 20th century, suggested that it might be possible to replace harmful microbes in the gut with useful microbes. He hypothesized that bacteria such as clostridia, which are part of the normal gut flora, produce toxic substances from the digestion of proteins. He believed these compounds were responsible for what he called “intestinal auto-intoxication”, which he linked to physical changes associated with old age.
This led him to propose that milk fermented with lactic-acid bacteria could inhibit the growth of these “toxic” bacteria because of the low pH produced by the fermentation of lactose. Soon, he introduced the idea that a diet high in sour milk fermented with the bacteria he called “Bulgarian Bacillus” could improve digestive health. Friends in Paris soon followed his example and physicians began prescribing the sour milk diet for their patients.
But in 1920, Rettger demonstrated that Metchnikoff’s “Bulgarian Bacillus”, later called Lactobacillus bulgaricus, is actually unable to live in the human intestine. Naturally, the fermented food hypothesis petered out.
After that point, research on probiotics focused on the idea that scientists could isolate bacteria that seemed to be involved in a positive process and add extra amounts to the gut, with the hope of displacing other less desirable pathogens.
For example, Henry Tissier, a researcher at the Pasteur Institute, isolated a bacterium from breast-fed infants and named it Bacillus bifidus communis. He recommended that doctors give bifidus communis to babies suffering from diarrhea in the hopes that it would displace other species that might be causing the problem in the first place. Yet benefit from the treatment remained dubious.
Later, it was reasoned that “helpful” bacteria should be isolated directly from the gut, and in 1935, certain strains of Lactobacillus acidophilus were found to be very active when implanted in the human digestive tract. Trials were carried out using this organism, and encouraging results were obtained, especially in the relief of chronic constipation. Yet since the liver, kidneys, and parts of the gut not affected by probiotics are involved in the constipation process, one could argue that such benefits are also explained by Marshall’s hypothesis.
In these and other cases, one must question – how can we assume that bacterial species such as those isolated from breast-fed infants or from the digestive tract are necessarily “good”? Can we simply assume that a bacterial species is beneficial because it appears at face value not to be causing any harm?
It’s true that certain bacterial species are competitive, meaning that one species may be able to kill another. Take, for example, Streptococcus, which has been shown to effectively kill Staphylococcus bacteria. In fact, the antibiotic demeclocycline, which was derived from a strain of Streptococcus bacteria, is particularly effective at quelling Staphylococcus infections.
Yet do the bacterial species in common probiotic products possess such competitive properties? To date, there has simply been no evidence or laboratory studies showing that they do. Plus, if probiotic strains are indeed killing other more virulent pathogens, wouldn’t the death of such strains cause a rise in immunopathology rather than a feeling of relief?
“Can we simply assume that a bacterial species is beneficial because it appears at face value not to be causing any harm?”Another reality that probiotic enthusiasists often fail to consider is how horizontal gene transfer affects probiotic bacteria in the gut. Horizontal gene transfer is a process in which organisms swap genetic material by trading plasmids, or circular molecules of DNA that can replicate independently of a pathogen’s other genetic material.
This means that even if a species of bacteria considered to be “helpful” enters the gut, it can easily trade plasmids with other disease causing pathogens – quickly changing it from a potentially harmless organism to yet another pathogen contributing to disease.
This may be especially true for people with high loads of Th1 bacteria in the gut that can all too easily swap their genetic material with probiotic bacteria, rendering them part of the disease process rather than the “cure.”
“Increasingly, studies of genes and genomes are indicating that considerable horizontal gene transfer has occurred between bacteria,” states James Lake of the Molecular Biology Institute at the University of California. In fact, due to increasing evidence suggesting the importance of the phenomenon in organisms that cause disease, molecular biologists such as Peter Gogarten at the University of Connecticut have described horizontal gene transfer as “a new paradigm for biology.”
Gorgarten insists that horizontal gene transfer is “more frequent than most biologists could even imagine a decade ago.” In the face of such statements, we may want to reconsider ingesting large loads of extra bacteria that inevitably become part of a pool of pathogens trading genetic material when they actually enter the body.
Indeed, one of the largest meta-analysis studies on probiotics, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition by researchers at the Wageningen Centre for Food Sciences in the Netherlands, reviewed 49 studies on probiotics with lackluster results.[5] 26 of the studies dealt with the prevention or treatment of diarrheal disease, 9 with the prevention of cancer or of the formation of carcinogens, 7 with the lowering of serum cholesterol, and 7 with the stimulation of the immune system. The most widely studied probiotic bacteria were Lactobacillus GG (22 studies), Lactobacillus acidophilus (16 studies), Bifidobacterium bifidum (6 studies), and Enterococcus faecium (7 studies). The team concluded that intake of Lactobacillus GG did shorten the diarrheal phase of rotavirus infection, but that “evidence for the prevention by Lactobacillus GG and other probiotics of diarrhea due to viral or bacterial infections was less strong.” The effects of probiotics on the immune system were “inconclusive” because of the variety of outcome variables reported.
The team also reported that cholesterol-lowering abilities of probiotics “seem to be transient”, and found that production of mutagens after a meal might be reduced by intake of probiotics, but the relevance of the finding “was unclear”. The study finally concluded that while probiotics may have some effect on rotavirus infection, “other health effects of probiotic bacteria have not been well established.”
A 2005 study by the Food Standards Agency on 11 different types of probiotic bacteria attempted to determine where the pathogens break down as they pass through the digestive system. While the researchers were able to determine that most strains of probiotics survive past entry into the stomach, the data failed to show “if or where probiotics might have an effect,” meaning that mainstream researchers aren’t even sure where probiotics take effect, let alone what they do when they get to their target destination.
Despite doubt cast on the benefits of probiotics, it’s doubtful that Marshall’s hypothesis will gain any credence in the near future. There’s simply too much money at stake, and according to the Associated Press, “the market is ahead of the science. It’s all part of a burgeoning effort to capitalize on an obsession with health foods.” Over 150 food products that have probiotics have been introduced in the market this year - compared to about 100 last year and just 40 the year before that.
In fact, probiotics are a multibillion-dollar global industry. In the United States alone, retail sales of probiotic-containing foods and supplements totaled an estimated $764 million in 2005 and are projected to reach $1 billion in 2010, according to market research firm BCC Research.
Dannon’s Activia yogurt, introduced last year, is among the best known U.S. products. Its first-year U.S. sales totaled more than $100 million. General Mills introduced its competitor, Yo-Plus, under the Yoplait yogurt brand this year.
Other 2007 products include: Kraft Foods Inc.’s LiveActive prebiotic cottage cheese and probiotic cheddar cheese; Nestle’s probiotic Good Start Natural Cultures baby formula; Beech-Nut Nutrition Corp.’s Good Evening prebiotic baby food; and the Swiss firm Barry Callebaut’s probiotic chocolate.
Probiotic manufacturer Nutraceutics just targeted $100 million in probiotic sales. Meanwhile, New Zealand oral probiotics developer BLIS Technologies is planning to issue new shares to fund an expansion of its business into new international markets in order to boost development efforts that will benefit shareholders if the products take off.
A continent away, dietary supplements with Probi’s healthy bacteria Lp299v will be launched in China in conjunction with the leading domestic health food company Biostime Inc. The list goes on as probiotics continue to be added to a mind-blowing number of new foods and products. As with vitamin D and most other supplements available in dietary form, the mistaken notion that “more is always better” seems to reign supreme.
As stated in a recent article on probiotics in Time Magazine, “Whether or not you’ve ever developed a taste - or even a tolerance - for living things in your lunch, more are on the way. Food companies have been coming to the conclusion that if a few of these superstar bacteria are good for you, then more will be even better.”
Also unnerving is that the FDA hasn’t set any upper limit for probiotic consumption, largely because nobody really knows exactly what they do upon entering the body, so recommending a “desirable” dose is impossible. This means that a person can guzzle tremendous loads of probiotic supplements without ever consulting the advice of a doctor.
At least, according to Time, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration is “relatively neutral, using the growing popularity of probiotics to caution manufacturers not to pitch the foods as some sort of panacea for any specific disease.” Whether food companies actually follow such advice remains to be seen.
The NIH has declared the study of gastrointestinal bacteria and probiotics a major research initiative. “The fact that there are a number of health implications and a lack of understanding associated with the use of probiotics makes this a very interesting subject to study,” said Crystal McDade-Ngutter, who heads an NIH working group on the topic.
The skeptic in me can’t help thinking that a lot of companies are making a pretty penny off simple palliation. At the very least, the fact that probiotics possess the ability to modulate where and when the innate immune system is activated should give one pause. In the meantime, Marshall prefers not to give advice about probiotics.
“I haven’t stated a position on probiotics,” states Marshall. “There are many on the [Marshall] protocol who are convinced they are helpful, and I would prefer to concentrate on the key issues that folk really need to solve – no vitamin D, plenty of Benicar, and a supportive family/medical environment. Probiotics are a second-order effect, I think (less important).”
“So I tend to leave it to the individual. Most Th1 patients have severe GI tract involvement, and dealing with that takes just about every tool in their arsenal. If probiotics seem to help, then who am I to say no? On the other hand, they do not form part of the base protocol, as any benefit is not obvious to me, whether based on personal experience, or biological knowledge.”
70 Responses for "Pondering Probiotics"
Another great article, Amy. I am another extreme skeptic when it comes to probiotics. Been there, done that–and it wasn’t the answer, but it cost me plenty. To corroborate this hypothesis is the experience of those who have recovered using the MP and have no need of so-called “healthy” bacteria. Thanks for covering this topic!
Amy, I’m so glad you included the hugh amount of money involved in the health food industry. So many with chronic illness hate the “evil” drug companies and medical profession.
Practically, all of us have tried the health food route to some extent. Several years ago, my husband and I were visting the island of St. Kitts in the Carribian. Our guide showed use a Noni tree that he said had bitter horrible fruit, I had just stopped drinking Noni juice at $45 a bottle. When I told him what people were paying for it in the states and drinking it to aid in health you should have heard him laugh about the useless scrub fruit.
People who have turned to “health” food and many supplements need to scrutinize this industry and their products in the same way they have learned to do with the mainstream medical field ( treatments, drugs, and diagnostic proceedures). What validity either has to offer in long term health needs to be researched and questioned.
Needless to say my Noni juice and TIGO drinking days are long over. I’d rather buy a batch of Benicar. kelly well
Hi Kelly,
I know where you’re coming from. During my pre-MP CFS days I tried desperately to adjust my diet again and again without success.
I don’t necessarily blame probiotic manufacturers for picking up on a burgeoning health trend and trying to make money off it. After all, they are completely profit-driven enterprises.
However, I agree with you about the fact that the consumer needs to become increasingly skeptical. Right now we’re being guided by the notion that if something makes us feel good, it must be beneficial to our health. It’s quite easy for food companies to create an increasingly large number of products based on such a view because, to the average consumer who is unaware of the MP pathogenesis, it seems entirely logical.
But when one understands that bacterial death is equated with immunopathology rather than relief, the simplistic “consume my product and feel better!” must be examined in a different light.
Best,
Amy
So then why do the people in Tiajuana not get sick from their water but the visitors from southern california do. If this “innate immune system” really works as this article describes, I don’t think the prior statement would be a fact. Please refute my claim.
Hi website design,
There are two different branches of the immune system - the innate branch, and the adaptive branch. The innate immune system serves as the body’s first line of defense against infection, meaning that it has cells that directly attack pathogens and try to kill them as they enter the body. However, the innate response is often just preliminary. So in order to combat many pathogens, the innate immune system activates the adaptive branch to “help out.”
The adaptive immune response provides the immune system with the ability to recognize and remember specific pathogens (to generate immunity), and to mount stronger attacks each time the pathogen is encountered. The term “adaptive” stems from the fact that the adaptive branch prepares prepares itself for future challenges.
It does this by creating antigens - or molecules that recognize foreign cells. This leads to the development of immunological memory, in which each pathogen is “remembered” by a signature antibody. Memory cells and antibodies can then be called upon to quickly eliminate a pathogen should subsequent infections occur.
So people in Tijuana don’t have a “better” composition of bacteria in their guts. They simply have adaptive immune systems that since birth, have been creating antibodies to the contaminants in their water. Unfortunately, tourists to the region have had no prior exposure to such contaminants, Thus, they have not created antibodies or memory cells that would allow their adaptive immune systems to kill the pathogens they consume. The pathogens can then, more easily, cause disease.
A similar situation occurred when the Spanish conquistadors first came over to the American continent. While their adaptive immune systems had learned to create antibodies against the smallpox virus, the adaptive immune systems of the Indians they encountered had not. Tragically, a great number of Indians then succumbed to the disease.
In both cases, gut bacteria played no role in who develop what infection, at least to my knowledge. I think if people in Tijuana were thought to possibly have better gut flora, large companies would already be down in the region trying to isolate such bacteria in order to put them into “health” products.
So when I describe how the innate immune system works in the gut it’s important to understand that the adaptive branch works by very different means. Under such conditions, a model in which the innate immune response is diverted by probiotics is still plausible.
Best,
Amy
Amy,
I think there is weight in your argument about probiotics diverting the innate immune system from ‘more important’ work elsewhere in the body. However I think it is unlikely to be a black and white scenario. We are surely not adapted to living with a sterile gut, and most likely some bacteria are truly commensal, providing beneficial products from their metabolism. The key is to know which bacteria suit which individual, and certainly one size does not fit all here as the probiotic products marketers would have us believe. Certainly the immunogenicity of different bacteria will vary amongst individuals. Incidentally the same argument can be raised about many foods too. A good place to look for ideas about how to match foods and bacteria to individuals is the study site of Dr. Peter D’Adamo: http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Welcome
Although at first sight counter-intuitive, with your argument then perhaps probiotics that cause immunopathology would be the most effective to use!
Hi Nick,
No, I’m not trying to imply that probiotics are a black and white scenario, but I am trying to point out another part of the probiotic puzzle, possibly a major one. But you’re right, different people may benefit from different species of bacteria in the gut.
I’m currently working on another article that will discuss gut bacteria in greater depth. At one point I mention how one bacterial species may cause a person to glean 15-20% more energy from the carbohydrates they consume. While a person trying to lose weight would not want such bacteria in their gut, a person in a developing country who isn’t getting enough to eat definitely would.
So you are right, IMO if when we understand the role of gut bacteria, we may be able to adapt the bacteria in our guts according to our circumstances and needs. Right now, as you mention, everyone is dumping the same types of bacteria into their guts in copious amounts. It’s a blanket strategy that is much less effective or perhaps even counterproductive, especially when we don’t even really know what the probiotics are doing.
I don’t know anything about matching foods to bacteria. It seems to me that a healthy person should be able to eat a wide range of foods.
To clarify, all probiotics generate an immune system response. All bacteria that enter the body generate an immune response. I did consider, while writing this article, that if a person had disease-causing bacteria right in the area where probiotics enter the gut and are “greeted” by the innate immune system, that the immune response stimulated by probiotic entry could kill some of the other pathogenic bacteria in the area. But most people are trying to target bacteria in other areas of the gut or organs nearby the gut, in which case the inflammatory response generated by the entry of probiotics would have no such effect on die-off.
Best,
Amy
Hey Amy! Very interesting article. My first thought was that since Inulin is touted as enhancing the uptake of calcium that it may just be upregulating 1,25D3 in a manner similar to what you suggest. I’m trying to figure out if that’s correct.
Those homozygous for certain Vitamin D receptor polymorphisms did exhibit a lessened response to Inulin in terms of calcium uptake supporting the original hypothesis. But if they were only increasing an infection then we shouldn’t also see an increase in bone mineralization, right? Or is this effect simply localized to the gut, since there would be more inflammation there and less in other places?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087995
Also unnerving is that the FDA hasn’t set any upper limit for probiotic consumption, largely because nobody really knows exactly what they do upon entering the body, so recommending a “desirable” dose is impossible. This means that a person can guzzle tremendous loads of probiotic supplements without ever consulting the advice of a doctor.
1. Is there any reason that talking to a doctor would help anyone, considering what most doctors know about the topic.
2. Could you please not argue for more regulation? Warning labels I’m fine with, but it’s hard enough for people to jump through the hoops of the medical profession as it is. Doctors are great for diagnoses, but as the availability of knowledge and rate of discovery increases, it seems much more effective for people, if they can, to take their health into their own hands rather than having to go through medical professionals for every daily choice. Talk about rent seeking on the part of a profession! And if someone really wants to talk to a doctor, noone’s stopping them.
Hi Ryan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not know enough about inulin to weigh in on if it can dysregulate or alter 1,25-D levels.
When it comes to seeking the advice of doctors, I’m not sure we can write them off completely. Doctors undergo rigorous training so that they can interpret studies and data in a way that most of the public cannot.
Thus it’s imperative that doctors become educated about the correct cause of inflammatory disease. When the Marshall pathogenesis and other related research is taught in medical school, doctors will, in my opinion, once again become a valuable resource.
The problem is that left on their own, the public generally enter discussions about health that turn into free-for-alls where anybody’s opinion can accidentally be taken as fact.
At the moment, I agree that patients need to largely take control of their own health. They need to seek alternative professional viewpoints rather than simply taking what their current mainstream doctor says as unquestionable truth. But it’s my hope that as the MP reaches the mainstream, doctors can once again assume a guiding role that will move patients in the right direction.
Best,
Amy
Hi Amy,
Did you check out the study I posted? It wasn’t limited to Inulin, but looked at a whole host of ‘pre-biotic’ compounds indicating that the results shown are due to elevated levels of (certain?) gut bacteria.
Also, do you have any idea what adaptive advantage people gain by reacting to a variety of bacteria by increasing blood levels of calcium?
Hi Website Design,
Another possible factor regarding resistance to pathogens in the local water, in addition to the adaptive immune system that Amy mentioned, is bacteriophage. Phage are viruses which attack bacteria, and are very specific about which ones they target. Pasteur found that the presence of phage that attacked a gastro-intestinal disease often coincided with the elimination of disease symptoms.
Theoretically, it should be possible to ‘immunize’ a person against local pathogens through a mixture of vaccines and phage but the cost of getting such a mix approved by the FDA is prohibitive, especially since both solutions would only be effective for a fairly small area.
The rise of antibiotics coupled with some early misunderstandings of phage prevented the development of this technology in the West.
The former USSR relied on a facility in Tsibli, Georgia to provide phage for their troops, particularly for diseases like Cholera.
Unfortunately for those with th1 illnesses cell wall deficient bacteria and intracellular bacteria don’t currently seem like good targets for phage. They work best on the skin and in the gut.
Hi Ryan,
I absolutely agree with your last statement which is that the use of phages is a terrible idea for anyone with Th1 disease or a bacterial illness. We know that the Th1 pathogens gradually slow innate immunity by creating VDR-blocking substances. As people who harbor the Th1 pathogens become increasingly immunosuppressed, any phage released upon any area of their body could become part of the “pea soup” of pathogens that contribute to their disease state rather than proving to be a therapy that offers them any benefit.
Consider that almost all of the population harbors the Th1 pathogens to some degree, and the fact that a vast number of people are immunosuppressed due to excess vitamin D intake. Again, phages could still cause a lot of problems in people considered “healthy.”
Plus, I strongly disagree that people in Tijuana harbor phages that Americans don’t. Have you seen any studies showing that different populations of people naturally harbor different phages? I believe most studies involving phages have been done in the laboratory and that phages are not normally considered to be a beneficial component of gut flora.
Best,
Amy
Hi Ryan,
Sorry, I really don’t know much about inulin or prebiotics. I glanced over the article you posted but was unable to see much of a connection between what was put forth in the article and the model of inflammatory disease discussed on this site.
When it comes to calcium, I have never heard of increasing calcium in order to kill bacteria. When the Vitamin D Receptor is active - as it is when it’s not blocked by 25-D or bacterial ligands - it transcribes that allow for the absorption of calcium. But such a process mostly benefits the bones and I have no idea how it would affect bacterial death.
Best,
Amy
Hi Amy,
Did you check out the study I posted? It wasn’t limited to Inulin, but looked at a whole host of ‘pre-biotic’ compounds indicating that the results shown are due to elevated levels of (certain?) gut bacteria.
Also, do you have any idea what adaptive advantage people gain by reacting to a variety of bacteria by increasing blood levels of calcium?
Prebiotics are substances that are supposed to increase the growth of (mostly) beneficial bacteria in the gut. They are also supposed to provide benefit by tasting sweet but resulting in less of an insulin spike (since they have to be digested by gut bacteria before they work.)
They are also known for increasing calcium absorption, an action which, in this case, apparently involves the VDR.
I absolutely agree with your last statement which is that the use of phages is a terrible idea for anyone with Th1 disease or a bacterial illness.
To be clear, I didn’t say that. Just that, while phage therapy can currently clear certain harmful bacteria from the gut and skin (and tremendously increase the effectiveness of antibiotics when used in conjunction with them) there isn’t a phage treatment yet which can effectively and safely clear harmful Th1 bacteria inside the body. It’s possible to reduce the numbers of such bacteria, but not eliminate them. It’s a slight but important distinction. One of the problems with injected phage, in fact, is that it’s cleared so rapidly that it doesn’t have an effect on the target pathogen.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16584300?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Of course, considering that the Marshall protocol is supposed to last three years in some cases, this difficulty treating CWD bacteria with a single strain of phage rather than a cocktail and unassisted by antibiotics doesn’t seem surprising.
Phage therapy still seems relevant since diabetics, who may be suffering from Th1 related illness, may get help healing their ulcers from phage even if the ulcers contain MRSA.
I don’t understand more than the basics of biofilms, but I think it would be interesting (in the future, not now) if we could possibly infiltrate biofilms with a non-virulent form of a phage-infected CWD bacteria of the type an individual already has in order to infiltrate and break up the biofilm and then eliminate remaining bacteria with antibiotics.
I believe most studies involving phages have been done in the laboratory and that phages are not normally considered to be a beneficial component of gut flora.
There’s a long history of phage use in the Soviet Union. It’s not documented anywhere I can find. The folks from Tsibli were in the process of setting up shop somewhere south of the border, last time I checked. There are a fair number of western clinical studies showing that certain types of phage can be helpful in a clinical setting. I had a nice post documenting this, but my browser crashed. I can re-provide if you’re interested. Also, there are studies showing beneficial phage being isolated from animal and human feces. Though I’m not sure that the helpful lytic phage hang around in a particular individual for long periods of time. I think that issue is unresearched enough to be an open question.
Of course, lysogenic phage may also be harmful in some cases (and, if I were to guess, are harmful since they would distract the immune system). Human disease caused by bacteria infected with lysogenic phage isn’t something I can find too much about, however. But I’d bet money that it would be harmful in some ways, even if it might be helpful in others.
One more thought - If someone is on oral antibiotics, wouldn’t administration of probiotics possibly help work towards the gut not being filled with bacteria containing plasmids for antibiotic resistance, not to mention helping to ward off C. Difficile?
There’s a long history of phage use in the Soviet Union. It’s not documented anywhere I can find.
On second thought, that’s not true. They did have a few papers in the literature.
Hi Ryan,
You’ve brought up a lot of topics at once. I know what prebiotics are, I just have not investigated them enough to cast an opinion as to whether they are beneficial or not. But considering the fact that the majority of prebiotics are carbodydrate containing compounds, they would probably not be encouraged on the MP. Patients on the MP generally avoid carbodydrates, as glucose serves as a direct source of energy for the bacteria patients are trying to kill. In fact, many people note that their immunopathology rises when they consume less carbodydrates, meaning that carbohydrates do seem to provide disease causing bacteria with extra energy to survive.
When it comes to phages, you should take into consideration the fact that the vast majority of the population is immunocompromised. The fact that nearly everyone harbors the Th1 pathogens and the fact that patients are generally treated with a host of steroids and secosteroids such as vitamin D mean that exposing such patients to phages could have risky consequences. As stated before, I personally would hesitate before using phages on anyone with a Th1 illness - including diabetes. The fact that phages were used in Soviet Union doesn’t really change my mind about any of the above.
The fact that you brought up antibiotic therapy and a possible benefit from probiotics makes me think you missed the main point of my article. If antibiotics are administered in the subinhibitory concentrations used by the MP, GI issues don’t seem to be an issue. Most patients on the MP instead note improvements in GI symptoms as they kill gut bacteria.
I’m arguing that nobody has actually determined whether probiotics are even beneficial bacteria. The fact that they make patients feel better can also be explained by their ability to divert the innate immune system from killing bacteria in other organs near the GI track, leading to less immunopathology in those areas.
My next major article will discuss gut bacteria in greater detail and may clarify some of your questions related to gut microbes and the MP.
Best,
Amy
Amy,
Regarding the last 2 comments of your reply to my last post, everything that goes into the gut is assessed by the immune system so all foods generate an immune system response as well as all probiotics. Over half the white blood cells in the immune system are centred there. It is another one of those myths out there that we are omnivores – as a species perhaps, but certainly not as individuals.
Many foodstuffs for instance, contain lectins which can be thought of as primitive plant antibodies. Many of these have specificity for antigens found in our tissues, especially blood type antigens, which of course vary amongst individuals. The reactions between lectins and our own antigens can create inflammatory problems which our immune system must deal with, and this can detract from useful bacteria killing as your article alludes to with probiotics.
I have used the blood type diet for several years before I found the MP and credit it with keeping me from the worst ravages of TH1 disease. Apart from the modifications necessary to avoid vitamin D ingestion, I still use it and I am sure it has helped me tolerate the MP better than many others I have read about.
Cheers,
Nick
Nick,
Thank you very much for clarifying! I did check out the link you sent me before concerning D’Adamo’s work but didn’t end up finding a section that described what you did above.
I have no experience with a blood type diet, but if all foods generate an immune response in the gut, I can see why such a diet would allow you to obtain relief.
There’s a lot going on in the gut huh? Personally, I think our view of the gut and how to maintain a healthy gut will be evolving quite a bit over the coming years.
Best,
Amy
Re: the Marshall Protocol
I know that Trevor has said that it’s difficult for a person to develop resistance to multiple antibiotics all at once. Treatment with multiple antibiotics makes sense in that regard. (Why don’t more doctors use a mix?) But I don’t see how people on the protocol could be tested to ensure that all their bacteria are not already partially resistant to some of the antibiotics, which would alter the odds of forming resistance. (I realize that tetracycline class drugs currently have a good record in this regard. Even so)
I bring this up for a number of reasons, including that those with pathogenic bacteria in their gut might, in some cases, be better served by phage than by probiotics, or by a mix of phage and antibiotics.
Adding phage to the antibiotic mix when effective would be helpful. (Theoretically, antibiotics should stress the immune system too. But they should yield a net benefit.)
Patients with MRSA (Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus) bacteremia had more acute renal failure and hemodynamic instability than patients with MSSA (Methicillin-susceptible Staphylococcus aureus) bacteremia. They had a longer intensive care unit stay and ventilator dependency. Patients with MRSA bacteremia had a higher 30-day mortality rate (53.2% vs 18.4%) and in-hospital mortality rate (63.8% vs 23.7%)
In other words, a lot of people who get sick from hospitals do so because they have resistant bacteria and the antibiotics that they’re given aren’t working. I assume we’re agreed here.
At this point, bacteriophage have strong potential for treating topical and gastro-intestinal infections as well as cleaning food , operating rooms, and certain crops and livestock.
A sampling of relevant articles;
USDA article
Hi Ryan,
No, I don’t agree with you on any of the points you mention above. For one thing, you should read the following article that explains exactly how the MP antibiotics work. They are bacteriostatic, and when used in specific combinations block different ribosomes. So when used in many different combinations (as is done on the MP) the statistical chance that any bacterium could stay alive after their ribosomes have been blocked in so many different ways is essentially null.
http://bacteriality.com/2007/10/11/antibiotics/
Then, I suggest you read this short article where I refute exactly the misconception you are bringing up:
“Long term antibiotic therapy is dangerous and I will develop antibiotic resistant bacteria”
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/23/misconceptions/#3
Here’s the final thing to keep in mind: The MP not only kills bacteria but restores the function of the innate immune system. It does this so effectively (and Benicar maximizes the effect) so that even if the antibiotics themselves fail to target a specific bacterial species, the immune system itself will probably render them dead on its own.
Plus, if patients on the MP are resistant to the antibiotics they are using, they would not be experiencing strong immunopathology. Yet the MP response rate is nearly 100% and immunopathology generally spans the course of years.
First off, we don’t use probiotics on the MP. I think my article made that clear (I hope). We will also never used phages. Again, releasing a potent phage on an immunocompromised patient seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Since the antibiotics and Benicar are working just fine, there is little need to even consider such an option.
By the way, minocycline, the base antibiotic of the MP, is one of the antibiotics that remains most effective against MRSA, even after it has been prescribed repeatedly for decades.
Best,
Amy
Amy
Thanks for your contributions towards understanding what goes on inside..
I hope you wont mind me disagreeing with you a little on probiotics…..the facts are that so many studies have concluded probiotics can induce positive compounds and effects in the gut.
And instead of creating Inflammation they can reduce inflammation. Some species of Probiotics induce / promote the growth and number of Regulatory T Cells the policemen of the our immune system.
I agree with.. you more research is needed to select the bacteria that induces what the individual needs…and that is happening albeit slowly.
I know a few gastro’s who privately swear by probiotics for IBS/IBD and forms of colitis..they tell their patients to go and take them…in fact Ive have been told the effects of probiotics are better than any prescribed drug (for certain gastro problems..)
However more and more and even more research is needed..
btw Ive keep coming back to this site..Im hoping to see some research Doc test your mettle…knowing that you would indeed be up for the challenge.
I hope one or more do come along as robust debate can lead to more understanding and development.
Good luck and look forward to reading your article on gut flora.
Hi Jim,
Sorry for my delayed reply. I’ve been away at a medical conference. I think you are still missing the key point I’m trying to communicate in the article. I’m not denying the reality that probiotics have been shown to make patients feel better or the fact that many doctors might swear by them as a means to palliative their patient’s symptoms.
I am simply saying that the reasons probiotics may be eliciting a response in the gut is very likely due to different reasons that those commonly accepted. I have to disagree with your statement that probiotics reduce inflammation. As I state in the piece, any pathogen that enters the gut, including probiotic bacteria, cause the innate immune system to mount an inflammatory response to their presence. There are no exceptions.
BUT the main point I am trying to communicate is that by causing an elevated inflammatory response in one area of the gut, probiotics may divert immune system cells from causing a certain degree of inflammation in another area of the gut. So there could be a decrease in inflammation in organs or areas that are NOT in the area where probiotics are being greeted by the gut.
So the question is the following: If the body is working to kill bacteria in a certain organ (by generating an inflammatory response) and then cells are diverted away from the site of attack in order to deal with probiotics entering another area of the gut, is that a good thing? Probably not, because as the immune cells manage incoming probiotics they are no longer effectively maintaining their response against the chronic bacteria that are most important to target. Furthermore, the reduction in inflammation in an area where chronic bacteria were once being killed at a greater rate will cause the patient to feel better, but they are not actually getting better.
I know it’s hard to view probiotic action through new lens, but I’ve tried to communicate this hypothesis as best I can.
There is no way doctors could test the hypothesis in a clinical setting, as clinical studies would not reveal the actual molecular processes being affected by probiotics, which is what we are debating here. But a lot of information on the effectiveness of probiotics can be gained from the data being collected from patients in our phase II study. While some study subjects use probiotics, the vast majority do not, and gut issues almost always resolve over the course of treatment. So killing the pathogenic bacteria in our guts rather than pouring in large amounts of extra pathogens in the form of probiotics seems, in my opinion, to be a much more effective way to treat bowel issues.
Thank you for your interest though. I will finally be putting up my article that mentions gut bacteria in a little more detail (in one section) in a few days….
Best,
Amy
Amy,
Thanks for your response.
I think we are on the same page and certainly are going in the same direction.
Im looking forward to reading your gut flora piece.
I think your response is confident however as you say proving your hypothesis is currently difficult in a clinical setting ,anecdotal evidence however from the MP patients points in your favour.
The processes that occur with bacteria is what you are focused on and so am I…T4 regulatory cells do increase after certain species of Probiotics are introduced into the gut…how this occurs ?…however it does this.. the creation of more T4 reg cells would be expected to reduce inflammation.
I quote this again as it’s the only piece of the puzzle I can be sure off…and that has been documented.
Compounds which the Probiotics produce are yet to be thoroughly understood..and the interactions with the body…so much to understand and prove….it is an area that screams for more and more research.
Your idea of diverting the immune system away from the area of so called autoimmunity to deal with probiotic’s sounds valid…thinking of how worms are used to calm the immune response.
Its a more than fascinating subject..and I have an open mind…I do get what you are saying..
Keep up the good work..in my books open frank discussion like this can switch on peoples minds to new avenues…I do hope research fellows get a wind of your site and read your articles…and discuss them with you and us…(hoping that ego’s do not get in their way..and fear of career factor etc…) as in any case it’s the patients/the people they should be thinking of.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Thanks for being so open-minded. I definitely agree that more research needs to be conducted on probitics - particularly research that focuses on their impact on the immune system.
What books have you written? It’s great that you engage others in open discussions.
Thanks for your kind words and I hope that you can continue to return to Bacteriality in order to follow the latest developments related to the Marshall Pathogenesis.
Best,
Amy
Hi Amy,
I am so glad you covered this topic! It reminded me of a book that is very popular in the IBD and alternative health community called “Patient Heal Thyself” by Dr. Jordan Rubin. (I use the title “Dr.” loosely as he is a naturopath.)
His proposed “cure” for his life threatening case of Crohn’s disease is based on a foundation of probiotic treatment by homeostatic soil organisms (he equates it to eating dirt — many followers of natural medicine love this concept for obvious reasons). HSOs are sold only in a product called Primal Defense that he now manufactures and sells through his private company, yet another cog very profitable probiotic health food machine.
(I have a jar of Primal Defense in my bathroom collecting dust along with all of the other probiotic supplements that never made me well.)
In his book, he states that he experienced a Herxheimer reaction upon taking his first dose of Primal Defense, and then gradually became “well” over a period of a few months. Your article seems to clarify that scenario to some degree. At first, when I read his claim, I thought that HSOs may be able to kill th1 pathogens by competition. That could be, but it is also plausible that Jordan’s innate immune system may have responded to just about anything - th1 pathogens, regular form bacteria, or even the supplement itself. The Herx could have been meaningless as far as an indication of “recovery” and the randomness of the event may explain why Primal Defense did not have the same effect on me.
Additionally, he complemented the HSO therapy with many hours per day of direct sunlight exposure, and also consumed a diet high in coconut oil, seafood, and goat’s milk and virtually no carbohydrates. While I am not opposed to following an all natural, “real food” diet even in a state of true health, his dietary recommendations seem mostly palliative.
I have a number of friends who still think I need to use Jordan Rubin’s protocol to get off of steroids. However, I think a protocol like this would actually be quite detrimental, maybe even more so than the medications and other techniques I am currently using as “stepping stones” to an easier recovery path. I suppose anyone with GI immunopathology could employ some of Jordan’s techniques as a means to an end for a specific purpose, such as slowing the herx in order to stay the course and avoid the ER — but such a thing would have to be orchestrated just as carefully as the timing and dosing of any medication whether it is from an orange plastic bottle or the floor of your vegetable garden.
This is a perfect example of how people need to understand that all forms of medicine, both “natural” and “conventional,” are to be seen as tools that may or may not play a role in a person’s recovery depending on how you use them. Understanding the underlying cause of disease in addition to how all of the available tools work is really the winning combination when you’re trying to outsmart evolution. And of course, sometimes you win and sometimes you don’t.
Thanks again,
Gina
Amy,
How does this alternate hypothsis square with the fact that vaginal yeast infections often clear up with probiotics?
Hi Mackie,
Good question!
Have you ever noticed that most people who suffer from vaginal yeast infections get them every so often? It’s usually not a one-time occurrence.
That suggests to me that vaginal yeast infections are caused by yeast species capable of surviving in both a latent and acute form. Once they have infected a person, they remain largely latent, except for periods of time when the immune response is altered or disrupted in some manner. Under such circumstances the yeast probably change into acute forms that cause increased symptoms.
Then keep in mind that it is when the immune system is KILLING any form of chronic pathogen that symptoms elevate. Cytokines are released as part of the inflammatory process and toxins escape from the dying pathogen. So if yeast are being killed, the symptoms associated with a yeast infection will actually increase.
But if a person takes a high enough number of probiotics at the same time their immune system is trying to fight the chronic yeast, their immune system will very well be diverted from killing the yeast to managing the influx of probiotic bacteria.
This will cause a decrease in the yeast die-off reaction, making the person feel better. However, the yeast themselves are never fully killed. So I would anticipate that such a person would probably suffer from another yeast outbreak down the road.
Best,
Amy
Amy,
Respectively, if the above scenario were true, then wouldn’t the yeast, during this time of probiotic-induced immune suppression, take the opportunity to proliferate. And if that were the case, wouldn’t localized vaginal yeast infections treated with probiotics, over time, become more deeply entrenched, growing systemic and possibly becoming deadly. That would seem a logical playing out of this alternate hypothesis, but as far as I know that does not happen.
It seems more likely that something else is going on entirely. Obviously it appears immune mediated, unless there is some secret passageway from the gut to the vagina for the probiotics to travel — but perhaps it is that immune function is upregulated by certain strains of probiotics, which then *indirectly* act to kill the infection. That is one possibility. I can think of a few others, but I am curious what you think.
Thanks.
Whoops!
That was respectFULLY not respectively.
Hi Mackie,
Your first scenario is pretty much what I was trying to describe except for the “deadly” part. I’m not sure that probiotics are a curative treatment for yeast infections, instead they probably just offer palliation - palliation that can stem from distracting the immune response. The reality is most people with yeast infections do get them on a recurrent basis, meaning that the yeast are likely persisting and perhaps gradually spreading, although as far as I know unless the person was completely immunocompromised the infection could never become deadly.
But there is no way of knowing for sure at this point. It’s possible that some species of probiotic bacteria kill yeast directly, although if that’s the case then recurrent yeast infections really shouldn’t be a medical problem anymore. And as you mentioned, I find it hard to imagine how orally ingested probiotics could reach the vagina in order to kill yeast in the area.
Best,
Amy
I find it hard to imagine how orally ingested probiotics could reach the vagina in order to kill yeast in the area.
Why couldn’t probiotics be locally applied? That’s been done successfully with wounds.
Also, Serrapeptase and possibly nattokinase, among other bacterial products look like they may have some interesting activity against biofilms.
p.s. Typical probiotic formulations don’t contain serapeptase and the link I gave seems vastly overpriced. I was just trying to demonstrate a mechanism by which probiotics could help with certain illnesses: some bacteria do contain chemicals to attack biofilms. I’d have to check on the lactobacillus and bifudus species typically used in probiotic formulas, though.
Hi Ryan,
Thanks for sharing. Serapeptase does seem to possess the ability to interfere with biofilm formation, although the site where you are getting information on the enzyme is a site that is trying to sell the enzyme, so one must take their financial interests into account when taking note of their claims.
Serapeptase however, is not a probiotic. It’s an enzyme isolated from bacteria. So when introduced to the body, it is not in a living form. That’s where the difference lies. I’m saying that probiotics might pose a problem in some cases because since they are living bacteria, the immune system will be diverted from dealing with the Th1 pathogens to manage their presence. However the immune system would not be diverted by an enzyme.
Best,
Amy
I posted rapidly before and grabbed the first link I could find on the topic. Sorry. Here’s a better link;
or this one, which addresses yeast directly;
Reduced yeast levels in biofilm by certain probiotics
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14160859
I understand that Serapeptase is not a probiotic. I agree that some of the most interesting effects currently achieved with probiotics might (or might not) be better achieved with isolates from those probiotics.
There seems to be support for the idea that probiotics trigger an immune response which might distract the immune system, generating an apparent reduction in symptoms.
My point (better supported here than previously) was that there seems to also be good evidence that some probiotics in some situations do more than simply mask symptoms, and to offer a mechanism as to how they helped the body fight disease.
I think we’re basically in agreement here.
Best,
Ryan
P.S. On a slightly unrelated note, you don’t seem to have ever posted on Toll-Like Receptors. Is there a reason or did I miss that? It seems like they’d alter the local concentration of Hormone D, so they’d be relevant to T. Marshall’s theories.
I am simply saying that the reasons probiotics may be eliciting a response in the gut is very likely due to different reasons that those commonly accepted. I have to disagree with your statement that probiotics reduce inflammation. As I state in the piece, any pathogen that enters the gut, including probiotic bacteria, cause the innate immune system to mount an inflammatory response to their presence. There are no exceptions.
I have to disagree. There are quite a few studies indicating that certain strains of probiotic bacteria have an anti-inflammatory effect. See this recent study for example:
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/14/2029.asp
I don’t have the final answer on probiotics, but I resist authoritative statements like the one you made: “any pathogen that enters the gut, including probiotic bacteria, cause the innate immune system to mount an inflammatory response to their presence. There are no exceptions.”
There are exceptions, as the study above pointed out. Dr. Marshall’s theory is indeed interesting, and I’m open to it, but we simply don’t know enough to prove or disprove it. Nor do we know enough to rule out the possibility that certain probiotics have anti-inflammatory effects.
There is also the fact that many traditional cultures who were free of Th1 inflammatory disease consumed fermented foods (which of course are probiotics) on a regular basis. The Abkhasian people of the Caucasus mountains are some of the healthiest, longest-lived people ever studied. Fermented goat milk is regular part of their diet.
As someone else pointed out earlier, we didn’t evolve to have a sterile gut - which is exactly what happens on the Marshall Protocol taking multiple antibiotics over a long period. From the moment we pass through the birth canal our gut begins to colonize with microorganisms. Babies that are formula-fed often go on to develop asthma, allergies and other health conditions more often than babies that are breast-fed, and it’s likely that the probiotic content of mother’s milk is playing a role here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17596738?dopt=Abstract
Marshall’s claim that sterilizing the gut is okay because people on the MP haven’t seen any negative effects from long-term use of multiple antibiotics is unconvincing. As he has pointed out several times, a temporary improvement could be simply due to a reduction in immunopathology rather than long-term healing. There is no reason to prove that people who have sterilized their gut won’t have problems in the future (just as I cannot prove the opposite at this time).
As I pointed out in my other comment, I’m a big believer in what evolutionary biology can teach us. Why would we have evolved a gut that supports trillions of microorganisms if they had such a deleterious effect on our health? And why is it that some of the most long-lived and healthy people in the world consume fermented foods (probiotics)?
I think we’re too focused on the “trees” in science today at the expense of seeing the “forest”. The problem with too much attention to the molecular level is that we’re just guessing a lot of the time; we don’t understand how each part contributes to the function of the whole.
The HRT fiasco and other similar mis-steps in the history of medicine are good examples. Someone comes up with the idea that estrogen relieves the symptoms of menopause, so women start taking estrogen. But, oops! HRT HRT puts postmenopausal women at a greater risk for heart disease, stroke, blood clots, breast cancer and even dementia.
Another example: researchers find that n-6 fatty acids (vegetable oil) lower LDL. So everyone is told to eat vegetable oil and avoid saturated fats. Turns out n-6 oils cause rapid peroxidation of LDL, which is 8x greater a risk factor for heart attack than normal LDL. Once again, recommendations based on one “piece” of a puzzle without understanding the whole puzzle have led to the deaths of countless thousands.
These are just a couple of examples, but of course there are more.
The biggest concern I have about the MP is the long-term use of antibiotics, for all of the reasons I’ve mentioned above. I’ve ready Dr. Marshall’s defense of this and yours as well, but nothing either of you have said proves that this isn’t a (dangerous) experiment.
Chris,
You criticize me for making definitive statements and then you turn around and make many of your own. The Abkhasian people of the Caucasus mountains are some of the healthiest, longest-lived people ever studied? And you are confident it’s the fermented goat’s milk they’re drinking that is making them so healthy? I can think of at least 30 other variables off the top of my head that could also lead to their state of health including the possibility that the Th1 pathogens have not spread in great number to the regions in which they live.
It should be noted that the only “authoritative statement” I made is not something that I am pushing forward but a scientific reality - something commonly accepted. The gut must become aware of and manage (with an inflammatory response) any bacterial species in the area. The fact that 70% of the immune system is located around the gut is not just a coincidence.
Also, you haven’t fully grasped what I’m saying about probiotics. The fact that some studies show that probiotics have an anti-inflammatory effect is EXACTLY what I’m trying to discuss. The question is why does that anti-inflammatory effect occur? What I’m putting forth is that probiotic bacteria may enter the gut, causing cells of the immune system to migrate away from another area of the gut or an organ near the gut. What happens when this migration takes place? Less of the Th1 pathogens are killed in the original area of the gut and immunopathology (which causes inflammation) decreases. This is interpreted as a drop in inflammation and it is reported that probiotic ingestion caused the drop. But were the probiotics acting directly to causing the drop in inflammation or were they simply distracting the immune system? I believe that in many cases the later is likely the case.
When it comes to babies and breast milk. again you should consider other variables. What about the fact that baby formula is fortified while breast milk is not? This article describes that situation in greater depth.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/07/06/breastfed/
It’s obvious that even before reading my articles you arrived that this site with a negative impression of the MP. If you feel the need to share other failed theories which have no relevancy to the MP then that’s your choice. Only remember that while you try to poke holes in the MP and insist that simple low dose antibiotics are “dangerous”, more and more patients are recovering thanks to the treatment each day. Dr. Marshall is speaking about the Marshall Pathogenesis at some of the most prestigious conferences in the world including chairing the entire session about vitamin D at the upcoming Congress on Autoimmunity In Portugal.
You say that humans have evolved to have trillions of bacteria in their guts and so things should stay that way. Tell me, did humans also evolve to have myriad terrible inflammatory diseases? Don’t forget that the pathogens are evolving as well as humans and that their ability to thrive in the gut (in many cases) could benefit them rather than us.
I urge you to try to be more open-minded.
Best,
Amy
Amy,
I find it ironic that you urge me to be more open-minded. You have clearly made up your mind that the MP theory is accurate and do not seem willing to consider the possibility that it is not.
I grant that there could be other reasons that the people of the Caucasus mountains live a long time, but do you grant the possibility that it is the fermented goat milk? Can you prove otherwise?
The same is true for the other comments I made. Can you prove your theory about how probiotics affect the gut? Even Dr. Marshall doesn’t claim he knows for sure what’s going on, from what I’ve read; he states it as a theory based on his research. Yet you criticize anyone who challenges your view.
I don’t think we can safely say yet that the theories I’m sharing are “failed”. There is plenty of evidence to support them, and some that contradicts them. The fact is that we just don’t know for sure, and I’m very comfortable admitting that. You seem to be certain that your perspective is “fact”.
Yes, humans did evolve to have trillions of bacteria in their gut. And no, they didn’t evolve to have terrible inflammatory diseases. But you set up a false dichotomy. By your own admission earlier in your comment, there are are many possible causes for a certain condition. I have not yet seen enough evidence to convince me that the terrible inflammatory diseases humans suffer from are due to our evolutionary gut physiology, i.e. harboring trillions of micro-organisms. If that were true, then the trend of increased inflammatory disease would be consistent across all populations in all countries - which it is not. These inflammatory diseases are appearing primarily in modern Western cultures, and much less so in the developing world.
I wouldn’t say I had a “negative impression” of the MP before arriving at your site. On the contrary, I was very interested to learn more about it. I have Crohn’s disease, and I am always looking for treatments that aim to address the root of the problem, rather than simply treat the symptoms.
However, before I accept something as true I need to examine and question it thoroughly. In my opinion that is simply sound scientific method. I’m not “criticizing” the theory for fun or trying to make trouble for you. I wouldn’t be wasting your time or mine if I wasn’t truly interested in the MP and the theories behind it.
I’m very glad that people on the MP are improving, and I don’t question Dr. Marshall’s credentials at all. Nevertheless, the fact that people on the MP are recovering on the treatment does not necessarily mean that there won’t be negative effects of such long-term antibiotic use in the future. (I’m not saying that there WILL be such effects, either; I’m just raising the real possibility which is based on SOME available evidence).
Certain diseases such as cancer take a long time to develop, and therefore wouldn’t necessarily show up in MP patients who have been on the protocol for only a few years. Some studies have shown that long-term antibiotic use is associated with higher risk of cancer:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/469344
The study does not prove causation - only correlation. But it does raise the possibility.
Another study in 2005 indicated that long-term treatment of acne with antibiotics increased the risk of URTI:
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/141/9/1132
Again, Amy, I do not claim that these studies PROVE that long-term antibiotic use is dangerous. Only that they raise the possibility.
It’s conceivable that in the case of MP patients, the potential benefits from the use of multiple, long-term low-dose antibiotics outweigh the potential risks, and that the improvement MP patients are seeing confirms this to some degree. But as I said, diseases like cancer take a long time to develop so the jury is not out on whether MP patients will be more susceptible to it or not.
Amy, I am seriously considering the Marshall Protocol for myself and that is why I’m examining it so thoroughly and critically. I don’t believe my comments indicate that I am being close-minded; on the contrary, how could I even consider the MP if I wasn’t? It conflicts with so many of my ideas (vitamin D is health-promoting, probiotics are beneficial, etc.) that I wouldn’t even be here if I wasn’t willing to question my own assumptions.
But are you willing to question yours? Are you willing to admit that what you are writing about here are theories, not facts? That these theories, though supported by compelling evidence, are not proven?
Thanks for all of the work you do here.
Best,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Yes, of course I am willing to admit that the Marshall Pathogenesis is far from perfect.
I am glad that you are reading the articles on this site and considering the MP. I understand that you need to question the MP but your posts came off as overly negative.
I’m sorry if I’ve misinterpreted your intent. As you can see I don’t have any problem putting up negative posts that challenge what I’ve written and trying to defend my position. If I wasn’t willing to let people challenge what I have written I simply wouldn’t have approved your posts.
Also avoiding probiotics is not even part of the Marshall Protocol. Dr. Marshall has taken no official stance on the issue. My discussion of probiotics in the article is definitely written under the premises that I am just putting forth a theory.
Best,
Amy
Chris,
A few quick comments.
1. HRT used conjugated equine estrogens and provera, not natural human estrogen and progesterone as many people assert. There’s good reason to believe that natural forms of the hormone would work better than the synthetic kinds which were used to ill effect. http://www.ehealthspan.com/treatment/hormone-replacement.html
2. There are nutritional reasons for fermenting foods. Menaquinone (Vitamin K2) is emerging as a very important nutrient. Our primary source for K2 is bacteria (such as Japanese natto, and to a lesser extent, cheeses.) K2 is anti-carcinogenic and strongly anti-atherosclerotic. Also, fermenting foods can break down anti-nutrients such as phytates, remove simple sugars, and help preserve the food. I’m not saying that probiotics are good or bad (There’s evidence for both), just that there are nutritional advantages to fermented foods outside of the probiotics involved.
Thanks, Ryan.
I’m aware of the benefits of K2 and I consume only grass-fed animal products for that reason, as well as some fermented foods.
The HRT example was simply meant to be an illustration of how a knowledge of one particular mechanism is not enough unless the whole picture is understood. There are many other examples of this in the history of medicine, and the PUFA/ox-LDL link I mentioned is just another.
I am also not saying probiotics are good or bad, and I agree that there is evidence for both. That’s exactly my point - we just don’t know yet. Furthermore, there may not be one answer for everyone. Perhaps probiotics are good for the general population, but bad for people with Th1 inflammation.
Hi Ryan,
Thanks for your input. I agree that fermented foods may have health benefits and I am not trying to advise against them. In my article when I use the word probiotics I am generally referring to the bacteria that are artificially isolated, manufactured, and sold as probiotic supplements.
Best,
Amy
I agree that fermented foods are the way to go. I also advise against taking artificially isolated probiotic capsules.
It’s also true that yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, natto, kombucha, etc. have other benefits aside from (potentially) their probiotic content, so it’s difficult to isolate what is doing what.
Thanks for your response, Amy. I’m very curious to learn as much as I can about the MP and then make an informed decision. I’ve already read a lot here, but still have more to go. Next step is going through your Keynote presentation and watching the video, as well as reviewing some of the references cited in your article. Will take some time, of course, but that’s okay.
Keep up the strong work,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Sounds good! Dr. Marshall, myself, Dr. Greg Blaney, and Tom Perez of the FDA will all be giving talks about the Marshall Pathogenesis at the upcoming Congress on Autoimmunity in Portugal which starts in about two weeks. So when we get back and the videos of those presentations are put up online, I suggest watching them too. We will be presenting some new MP statistics etc.
I’m glad that you are researching the MP so throughly. If you have questions about topics related to the MP another good place to ask them is at the following website:
http://www.curemyth1.org (Th1 refers to diseases caused by bacteria). The patient advocates on the site who are all volunteers will answer them free of charge.
Best,
Amy
Actually, what I’m going to do first of all is have my D metabolites tested. I’m very curious to know if those tests reveal that I am a candidate for the MP.
I’m certainly not photosensitive, and I actually feel much better after spending time in the sun. But I realize that could be a temporary reduction in immunopathology rather than a healing response.
Chris- This is one thing I’ve wondered a lot about the Marshall Protocol. I question T. Marshall’s assertion that moderately high levels of 25D will block the VDR because if there’s injury at a site the body is quite capable of locally converting 25D -> 1,25D via Toll Like Receptors.
Amy - The fact that some people feel better in the sun and some people feel worse seems to suggest an interesting distinction between cases. If T. Marshall’s model for D and the VDR account for these different results anywhere, please let me know.
Thanks,
Ryan
Hi Ryan,
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. What injury are you referring to? Plus, patients with inflammatory disease have levels of 1,25-D that are already too high. Take a look at figure 1 in Dr. Marshall’s BioEssay. You’ll see that when CYP24 is no longer transcribed 1,25-D rises without a feedback system to keep it in check. Under such circumstances the body is unlikely to covert 25-D into even more 1,25-D when its feedback systems are already telling it that 1,25-D is too high.
Also, I’m not sure how 25-D and the VDR has anything to do with how people tolerate the sun before the MP. The difference in how people tolerate light is usually due to the level of light they are getting. People who are generally not in too much light don’t have as high a level of 1,25-D and thus when they go in the sun they can really feel the “flare” that occurs when sunlight is converted to 1,25-D and starts to displace ligands from the nuclear receptors.
People who are getting a lot of sun think they feel better because they are getting so much 1,25-D that some of it remains as 25-D. So they feel the palliative effects of a secosteroid for a while which is misinterpreted as a sign of wellness. But as soon as they get out of the light, they generally crash.
By the time both types of people have limited sun exposure and vitamin D intake in preparation for the MP they are all negatively affected by light. There’s nobody on the MP who feels better in the light. So once on the treatment things standardize.
Of course as patients eliminate their bacterial loads they can once again start to tolerate light and in the end, they can tolerate sun without a problem.
Best,
Amy
Chris,
Testing your D metabolites is a good idea. But I don’t recommend relying solely on the results to make a decision about the MP. A therapeutic probe is also a good idea. Read more about D tests and therapeutic probes here:
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/23/misconceptions/#10
Also, as I alluded to when responding to Ryan, many people don’t realize that the sun is exacerbating their disease until they get out of it. Before the MP I thought the sun was amazing. I was so tan that people would tell me I didn’t even look white. Every time I felt bad I got some sun and felt temporarily better. Then when I started to block sun in preparation for the MP I was floored at how after staying out of the sun for two weeks it actually made me feel worse. So you won’t know how you react to sun until you stay out of it particularly until after you would start the MP meds.
Best,
Amy
This is all very interesting for me to ponder, Amy, and I appreciate your responses.
I definitely do want to test my D metabolites, although I understand that they aren’t considered conclusive evidence of D-mediated pathology either way.
The thing is, I still have not made up my mind about the MP. I’m not yet convinced that it’s safe or beneficial to take antibiotics over a long period of time. I’m also very reluctant to commit to avoiding sun exposure for several years, which would mean a drastic change of lifestyle and eliminate several of my favorite activities, unless I’m very, very certain that it will benefit me.
Even then, I’d have to carefully weigh the potential improvement I might have on the MP against the limits it would place on my lifestyle. I’m a very active person who loves the outdoors, especially the beach (I’m a lifelong surfer). The idea of avoiding sun exposure is so utterly counter-intuitive and alien that it’s difficult for me to even remotely consider.
There’s no doubt that I have Crohn’s disease, and I certainly would like to enjoy better health. Yet my quality of life is quite good compared to most people I’ve heard of with Crohn’s. I’m very active, I spend a lot of time outdoors, I’m able to go to school and work, etc. A year or two or more of avoiding sun exposure would seriously change all of that. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s being indoors all the time. Drives me nuts.
That said, if I was 95% convinced that the MP was sound and that I was a good candidate, I’d do it.
The therapeutic probe makes sense, but I have reservations. I think it’s very difficult in real clinical situations to distinguish between adverse/side effects and immunopathology. I’ve found that within certain “healing communities” (i.e. people who espouse a particular approach), side effects are almost always attributed to “die off / Herxheimer” reactions or what MP folks call immunopathology. I’m not saying this is true within the MP community (I haven’t been around long enough to know), but I suppose I would like to ask this question: how do you know the difference between side/adverse effects and immunopathology? Let’s say someone starts the therapeutic probe, and they begin to feel worse. Does that automatically mean they are experiencing immunopathology? Or isn’t it possible that they may be having an adverse reaction to one of the medications? How can you know for sure?
Best,
Chris
Hi Chris,
You are able to do outdoor activities now, work, and lead a fairly normal life? If that’s the case then you may very well not even become that light sensitive. Light sensitivity is not the same for everyone who does the MP, not at all. It is essentially tied to bacteria load - those people with higher bacterial loads are generally more light sensitive.
Your bacterial load seems as if it is largely confined to the gut which means it is much smaller than that of the average person on the MP. Most of our patients start out extremely sick, to the point where they are bedridden or using supplementary oxygen.
My Mom is an example of someone who started the MP while still being able to be decently active. She started after a diagnosis of Sjogren’s Syndrome and uveitis. She hardly because light sensitive at all. She continues to be able to function perfectly normally and do things in moderate sunlight. The only times she feels bad are when she literally is out in the Mexico City sun all day (my parents live in Mexico City). She still does 3 hours of yoga every day.
It would say your light sensitivity would be more similar to hers although it can’t be guaranteed. This article describes how light sensitivity varies between people:
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/23/misconceptions/#8
When it comes to immunopathology what is the likelihood the the MP medications would elicit side effects that almost completely mimic your disease symptoms? Benicar has an excellent safety profile - the only side effect reported is dizziness among 3% of people taking it. Make sure you are familiar with the safety info about Benicar presented here:
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/23/misconceptions/#2
The only other meds left are the antibiotics. How likely is it that the low-dose antibiotics would produce Crohn’s-like side effects? It’s hard to tell you exactly how, but I think you will be able to sense immunopathology when you feel it.
Best,
Amy
Thanks for the links, Amy.
It is actually possible that long-term, low-dose antibiotic use could produce side effects that mimic the symptoms of Crohn’s disease. In fact, there are some studies which link chronic antibiotic use with Crohn’s disease, even suggesting the possibility of causality. This is what concerns me so much about the antibiotic part of the MP.
I’m not really worried about Benicar - it seems fairly safe.
Just to clarify: are you saying that certain people on the MP (such as your mom, and perhaps myself) may not need to completely avoid sun exposure?
I am indeed active, able to surf, dance, go to the gym, train in martial arts, etc. Of course some days I cannot do these things, my stamina is quite low and pain and fatigue are very common for me. It’s just that I feel better when I exercise - even if I wasn’t feeling so great prior to doing it - and it helps me in other ways to stay active.
Chris
Yes Chris,
Some people who are on the MP have lower bacterial loads and are hardly light sensitive at all. It’s important to understand that when patients on the MP avoid light it’s because they HAVE to not because they are forced to. Someone with a very high bacterial load will find that sun exposure flares their symptoms so that they feel so much worse that they simply don’t want to be in the sun.
But if you start the MP and find that the sun doesn’t bother you too much, or that your sun flares are very minor and you are willing to tolerate them in order to spend more time outdoors, then you can make a decision not to avoid light very much. Just be careful because sometimes people think the sun isn’t affecting them and then they have a serious flare of symptoms. They may attribute it to the antibiotics rather than the sun and then not increase their antibiotics as effectively as they otherwise could.
If finally see why you think antibiotics can cause side effects! Why do you think people in those studies you read may have responded with Crohn’s-like symptoms to certain antibiotics? Almost certainly because the antibiotics were able to successfully kill some of the bacteria causing their disease and they got a die-off reaction.
Of course the scientists interpreting the results of such studies are not factoring a die-off reaction into their analysis so they interpret the rise in symptoms as side effects. This short article discusses how some people also are told they are allergic to an antibiotic, which is also generally just a sign of immunopathology as well. It’s the same general pattern.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/02/23/misconceptions/#4
Best,
Amy
I’ve now read all the misconceptions - thanks Amy.
I’m not sure I would agree with the statement that the Crohn’s-like symptoms are “almost certainly” due to immunopathology rather than side effects of the antibiotics.
Some studies have indicated a causal relationship between antibiotic use and Crohn’s. In other words, people who took a strong or long-term course of antibiotics are more likely to develop Crohn’s subsequently than people who didn’t. This suggests the *possibility* that the Th1 disease arose as a consequence of antibiotic use.
I’m not saying I agree with that hypothesis, or that it’s by any means certain. But the possibility exists and there’s some data which supports that possibility. That’s where my concern about antibiotics comes from.
In fact, my experience matches this. I took several courses of antibiotics in my teens and then again in my early 20s. My symptoms began in my mid-20s. Of course that doesn’t prove that antibiotics caused by symptoms, but it’s a possibility. And it’s pretty safe to say they didn’t help me.
When I first became sick, everyone thought I had parasites. So I took more antibiotics. The pattern was always the same - I felt better while on the drugs, and then worse as soon as I got off of them. This seems opposite to what would be expected on the MP, where I would feel worse after starting the drugs from immunopathology, and better off of them due to a lessening of die-off.
OK, th