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	<title>Comments on: Pondering Probiotics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/</link>
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		<title>By: Paul Albert</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-18485</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-18485</guid>
		<description>Hi Sergio,

Try CureMyTh1.org. For more details, see this Knowledge Base article:
http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:starting:physician:finding

Best,
Paul</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sergio,</p>
<p>Try CureMyTh1.org. For more details, see this Knowledge Base article:<br />
<a href="http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:starting:physician:finding" rel="nofollow">http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:starting:physician:finding</a></p>
<p>Best,<br />
Paul</p>
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		<title>By: Sergio Aguilar</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-18484</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergio Aguilar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-18484</guid>
		<description>Hi Amy, 

I&#039;ve been reading this website for more than two weeks I&#039;m very happy that I founf it. Could tell me how can I find a Doctor in Nashville TN, that offers the MP.

I&#039;ve tried without sucess to find it.

Thank you so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Amy, </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading this website for more than two weeks I&#8217;m very happy that I founf it. Could tell me how can I find a Doctor in Nashville TN, that offers the MP.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tried without sucess to find it.</p>
<p>Thank you so much.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-17468</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 11:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-17468</guid>
		<description>Great article, again, Amy.
I have always suspected probiotics to  generally be a waste of time and money.  I have used them for 20 years off and on.  Some made my bowel more inflamed, (perhaps due to the horizontal gene transfer and increased proliferation of &quot;unfriendly&quot; flora you mentioned), some added to my fatigue.   Never have I noticed feeling better, or improvement in my gut flora as defined by stool tests   (Doctors Data CDSA, and others).  
I do know people who have felt they helped tremendously, for a variety of problems.  (Perhaps palliation  of symptoms in some cases at least.)

One  valuable thing I take from your article is that the gut flora is not well understood.  The way alternative docs keep prescribing Probiotics to me, I thought it was all well researched and have always been confused about my own lack of response to taking them.   I will quit wasting time and money on stool tests and probiotics.

Thanks
Ann</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, again, Amy.<br />
I have always suspected probiotics to  generally be a waste of time and money.  I have used them for 20 years off and on.  Some made my bowel more inflamed, (perhaps due to the horizontal gene transfer and increased proliferation of &#8220;unfriendly&#8221; flora you mentioned), some added to my fatigue.   Never have I noticed feeling better, or improvement in my gut flora as defined by stool tests   (Doctors Data CDSA, and others).<br />
I do know people who have felt they helped tremendously, for a variety of problems.  (Perhaps palliation  of symptoms in some cases at least.)</p>
<p>One  valuable thing I take from your article is that the gut flora is not well understood.  The way alternative docs keep prescribing Probiotics to me, I thought it was all well researched and have always been confused about my own lack of response to taking them.   I will quit wasting time and money on stool tests and probiotics.</p>
<p>Thanks<br />
Ann</p>
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		<title>By: Amy Proal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-13410</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Proal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-13410</guid>
		<description>Hi Chris,

I&#039;m so glad to hear you plan to try a therapeutic probe!  Also, you probably can&#039;t find a better MP physician than Dr. Blaney.  I just got back from Portugal where I gave a speech at the International Congress on Autoimmunity.  Dr. Blaney gave a speech in the same session (I will be putting our speeches up on this site in the next few days).  I spoke to him at length about his experiences in treating MP patients and he is adept at helping people succeed on the protocol as effectively as possible.  

Let us know how your probe and appointment go!

Best,
Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chris,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so glad to hear you plan to try a therapeutic probe!  Also, you probably can&#8217;t find a better MP physician than Dr. Blaney.  I just got back from Portugal where I gave a speech at the International Congress on Autoimmunity.  Dr. Blaney gave a speech in the same session (I will be putting our speeches up on this site in the next few days).  I spoke to him at length about his experiences in treating MP patients and he is adept at helping people succeed on the protocol as effectively as possible.  </p>
<p>Let us know how your probe and appointment go!</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Amy</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-13355</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-13355</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

I&#039;m also grateful to Amy for her willingness to engage in a dialogue with me about the protocol.  Not sure if this makes a difference to you, but I&#039;ve decided to go ahead and do a therapeutic probe.  That doesn&#039;t mean I don&#039;t still have questions and issues about certain aspects of the protocol.  However, I&#039;m satisfied enough at this point about the basic premises and I believe that the only way I&#039;ll really know if it will work for me is to try it.

I actually have an appointment with Dr. Blaney in December.  Although I live in California, my wife is Canadian and we are heading up there this Christmas to visit her family.  I&#039;m going to stop at Dr. Blaney&#039;s on the way for a consultation; then I plan to work with him over the phone after that.

Dr. Blaney has over 200 patients on the Marshall Protocol, and is even on it himself.  I wanted to find a doctor who is both enthusiastic and experienced with the protocol to guide me, and it certainly seems Dr. Blaney fits the bill!  

You should know he has a waiting list, so best to call him now and set up an appointment.

Best,
Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also grateful to Amy for her willingness to engage in a dialogue with me about the protocol.  Not sure if this makes a difference to you, but I&#8217;ve decided to go ahead and do a therapeutic probe.  That doesn&#8217;t mean I don&#8217;t still have questions and issues about certain aspects of the protocol.  However, I&#8217;m satisfied enough at this point about the basic premises and I believe that the only way I&#8217;ll really know if it will work for me is to try it.</p>
<p>I actually have an appointment with Dr. Blaney in December.  Although I live in California, my wife is Canadian and we are heading up there this Christmas to visit her family.  I&#8217;m going to stop at Dr. Blaney&#8217;s on the way for a consultation; then I plan to work with him over the phone after that.</p>
<p>Dr. Blaney has over 200 patients on the Marshall Protocol, and is even on it himself.  I wanted to find a doctor who is both enthusiastic and experienced with the protocol to guide me, and it certainly seems Dr. Blaney fits the bill!  </p>
<p>You should know he has a waiting list, so best to call him now and set up an appointment.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Amy Proal</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-13344</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Proal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-13344</guid>
		<description>Hi Kevin,

MCS can certainly complicate one&#039;s life, can&#039;t it? I think it&#039;s definitely worth your time to try the MP.

There are doctors performing the MP all around the world including Canada. In fact, one of the interviews in the sidebar is with Dr. Greg Blaney who works in Vancouver.

To get a complete list for your province, visit &lt;a href=&quot;http://curemyth1.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CureMyTh1.org&lt;/a&gt; and request a list there.

Best,
Amy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kevin,</p>
<p>MCS can certainly complicate one&#8217;s life, can&#8217;t it? I think it&#8217;s definitely worth your time to try the MP.</p>
<p>There are doctors performing the MP all around the world including Canada. In fact, one of the interviews in the sidebar is with Dr. Greg Blaney who works in Vancouver.</p>
<p>To get a complete list for your province, visit <a href="http://curemyth1.org" rel="nofollow">CureMyTh1.org</a> and request a list there.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Amy</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Hohensinn</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-13337</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Hohensinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-13337</guid>
		<description>I want to thank Chris for his scepticism and Amy for still posting his comments.  I say this because for someone like me who obviously does not have the knowledge that you both posses, I need to find the truth and can only do this by looking at all the information I can find.  You see I have had Crohns Disease and Ankylosing Spondylitis for 15 years and recently have lost two jobs due to Chemical reactions.  I thought being a Power Engineer was a good profession, but now I am thinking of changing careers as this profession encounters many chemicals in many industries.  I don&#039;t dare say that I have MCS because that would be self diagnosing but I can&#039;t find a doctor that will give me a better explanation.  This is the first time I have come across this web site and it gives me hope that I may for the first time in my diseased life be able to tell my family that there may be a cure.  You don&#039;t know how happy this makes me.  So thank you again Amy for all of your knowledge and for allowing questions to be asked.  Now I would like to ask..... is this treatment only available in the States or can a Canadian Dr treat me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to thank Chris for his scepticism and Amy for still posting his comments.  I say this because for someone like me who obviously does not have the knowledge that you both posses, I need to find the truth and can only do this by looking at all the information I can find.  You see I have had Crohns Disease and Ankylosing Spondylitis for 15 years and recently have lost two jobs due to Chemical reactions.  I thought being a Power Engineer was a good profession, but now I am thinking of changing careers as this profession encounters many chemicals in many industries.  I don&#8217;t dare say that I have MCS because that would be self diagnosing but I can&#8217;t find a doctor that will give me a better explanation.  This is the first time I have come across this web site and it gives me hope that I may for the first time in my diseased life be able to tell my family that there may be a cure.  You don&#8217;t know how happy this makes me.  So thank you again Amy for all of your knowledge and for allowing questions to be asked.  Now I would like to ask&#8230;.. is this treatment only available in the States or can a Canadian Dr treat me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan W.</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-12622</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-12622</guid>
		<description>www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C546009.html

an interesting article about using heparin plus antibiotics to attack chronic infections. I wonder how well fibrinolytic probiotic extracts compare to heparin. I&#039;m sure they&#039;re far cheaper, at least. And there&#039;s evidence they&#039;re absorbed into the bloodstream from the intestines. 

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8845803?ordinalpos=8&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C546009.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C546009.html</a></p>
<p>an interesting article about using heparin plus antibiotics to attack chronic infections. I wonder how well fibrinolytic probiotic extracts compare to heparin. I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;re far cheaper, at least. And there&#8217;s evidence they&#8217;re absorbed into the bloodstream from the intestines. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8845803?ordinalpos=8&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8845803?ordinalpos=8&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan W.</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-12561</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 02:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-12561</guid>
		<description>Sorry. Normal &lt;i&gt;range&lt;/i&gt; for calcitriol is typically considered to be 24 to 65 pg/mL.65 pg/mL is the &lt;i&gt;upper limit&lt;/i&gt; for the normal range.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry. Normal <i>range</i> for calcitriol is typically considered to be 24 to 65 pg/mL.65 pg/mL is the <i>upper limit</i> for the normal range.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan W.</title>
		<link>http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/11/probiotics/comment-page-2/#comment-12560</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bacteriality.com/?p=192#comment-12560</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How do you know the status of their vitamin D metabolites?&lt;/i&gt;

People with Fibromyalgia, for instance, have 1,25D3 within what&#039;s considered the normal range.  You may disagree, 
since those associated with the Marshall Protocol tend to consider 45 pg/ml (from the Merck Manual) rather than 60-65 pg/ml
which is more modern standard (though it could be argued whether it was more accurate or not, or whether the 25D to 1,25D ratio was more significant as MP advocates now seem to do.)

Yet the model of a disregulated VDR is still used by those advocating the MP to describe people with fibromyalgia. 

Also from a pro-Marshall-study site; &quot;Vitamin D levels are useful for diagnosis, but sometimes still appear normal in persons with Th1 disease. In these cases, a therapeutic probe with the Marshall Protocol is the &quot;gold standard&quot;&quot;
members.aol.com/SynergyHN/vitd

This seems to bolster the notion that not all people with chronic infections have VDR dysregulation. I&#039;ve read what T. Marshall has written about capenine. But if all people with chronic infection had dysregulated VDRs it seems like D ratios would be &#039;the gold standard&#039; or closer to it. Or an antibody test for capenine could be, theoretically. 

&lt;i&gt;First of all, 25-D is not a hormone.&lt;/i&gt; It&#039;s a prehormone, yes, rather than a vitamin as popularly asserted. It&#039;s asserted by T. Marshall to block the VDR based on computer models. If I said otherwise somewhere, I apologize. Is this because I referred to Marshall&#039;s elucidation of &quot;Hormone D&quot; and his innovation was supposed to be specifically that 25D blocks the VDR?

&lt;i&gt;Here’s the key: it’s not a nutrient&lt;/i&gt; It&#039;s not a vitamin because a healthy person can synthesize it, yes. Interferon isn&#039;t a vitamin either, but that doesn&#039;t stop doctors from injecting people with extra doses of it under certain conditions. 

Your pubmed link was to the pubmed homepage, not the article you discussed. I can&#039;t find anything from August 2008 in pubmed on cathelidicin in a quick search, which I assume is one of the anti-microbial peptides you refer to. 

&lt;i&gt;Right now, molecular sequencing technology is making it clear that nearly every member of the population is carrying around a pathogenic bacterial load.&lt;/i&gt;

But is this the same as showing that all such pathogens dysregulate the VDR? That&#039;s the crucial point since it determines what levels of 1,25D are considered adaptive or maladaptive. You linked to an article about infants and CMV, so lets use that; viruses within the herpes family (CMV, EBV, HSV) tend to mess with the immune system using different mechanisms than VDR blockage. They tend to interfere/interact with nitric oxide synthesis, each via a different mechanism. There&#039;s some evidence that MRSA interferes with Immunoglobulin A. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848512?ordinalpos=1&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Dysregulation of the VDR doesn&#039;t seem to be the only way that pathogens, even bacteria, establish persistent infection and dysregulate the immune system. 

 &lt;i&gt;If you think deliberately and randomly exposing babies to bacteria sounds like a good idea&lt;/i&gt;

I did not say that it was a good idea or a bad idea, though I can understand how you inferred that since proponents of the idea tend to make that conclusion. I&#039;m referring simply to the apparent corelation between allergies and apparent exposure to random pathogens (not just the lactose fermenting variety used in probiotics.)

I apologize for taking up too much of your time. If you take a few months to respond, or don&#039;t respond, I&#039;ll entirely understand. And I&#039;ll listen to the talks at Portugal. 

Best, 

Ryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How do you know the status of their vitamin D metabolites?</i></p>
<p>People with Fibromyalgia, for instance, have 1,25D3 within what&#8217;s considered the normal range.  You may disagree,<br />
since those associated with the Marshall Protocol tend to consider 45 pg/ml (from the Merck Manual) rather than 60-65 pg/ml<br />
which is more modern standard (though it could be argued whether it was more accurate or not, or whether the 25D to 1,25D ratio was more significant as MP advocates now seem to do.)</p>
<p>Yet the model of a disregulated VDR is still used by those advocating the MP to describe people with fibromyalgia. </p>
<p>Also from a pro-Marshall-study site; &#8220;Vitamin D levels are useful for diagnosis, but sometimes still appear normal in persons with Th1 disease. In these cases, a therapeutic probe with the Marshall Protocol is the &#8220;gold standard&#8221;"<br />
members.aol.com/SynergyHN/vitd</p>
<p>This seems to bolster the notion that not all people with chronic infections have VDR dysregulation. I&#8217;ve read what T. Marshall has written about capenine. But if all people with chronic infection had dysregulated VDRs it seems like D ratios would be &#8216;the gold standard&#8217; or closer to it. Or an antibody test for capenine could be, theoretically. </p>
<p><i>First of all, 25-D is not a hormone.</i> It&#8217;s a prehormone, yes, rather than a vitamin as popularly asserted. It&#8217;s asserted by T. Marshall to block the VDR based on computer models. If I said otherwise somewhere, I apologize. Is this because I referred to Marshall&#8217;s elucidation of &#8220;Hormone D&#8221; and his innovation was supposed to be specifically that 25D blocks the VDR?</p>
<p><i>Here’s the key: it’s not a nutrient</i> It&#8217;s not a vitamin because a healthy person can synthesize it, yes. Interferon isn&#8217;t a vitamin either, but that doesn&#8217;t stop doctors from injecting people with extra doses of it under certain conditions. </p>
<p>Your pubmed link was to the pubmed homepage, not the article you discussed. I can&#8217;t find anything from August 2008 in pubmed on cathelidicin in a quick search, which I assume is one of the anti-microbial peptides you refer to. </p>
<p><i>Right now, molecular sequencing technology is making it clear that nearly every member of the population is carrying around a pathogenic bacterial load.</i></p>
<p>But is this the same as showing that all such pathogens dysregulate the VDR? That&#8217;s the crucial point since it determines what levels of 1,25D are considered adaptive or maladaptive. You linked to an article about infants and CMV, so lets use that; viruses within the herpes family (CMV, EBV, HSV) tend to mess with the immune system using different mechanisms than VDR blockage. They tend to interfere/interact with nitric oxide synthesis, each via a different mechanism. There&#8217;s some evidence that MRSA interferes with Immunoglobulin A. <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848512?ordinalpos=1&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17848512?ordinalpos=1&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</a></p>
<p>Dysregulation of the VDR doesn&#8217;t seem to be the only way that pathogens, even bacteria, establish persistent infection and dysregulate the immune system. </p>
<p> <i>If you think deliberately and randomly exposing babies to bacteria sounds like a good idea</i></p>
<p>I did not say that it was a good idea or a bad idea, though I can understand how you inferred that since proponents of the idea tend to make that conclusion. I&#8217;m referring simply to the apparent corelation between allergies and apparent exposure to random pathogens (not just the lactose fermenting variety used in probiotics.)</p>
<p>I apologize for taking up too much of your time. If you take a few months to respond, or don&#8217;t respond, I&#8217;ll entirely understand. And I&#8217;ll listen to the talks at Portugal. </p>
<p>Best, </p>
<p>Ryan</p>
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