10 Aug 2009
Men who have excessive faith in their theories or ideas are not only ill prepared for making discoveries; they also make very poor observations. Of necessity, they observe with a preconceived idea, and when they devise an experiment, they can see, in its results, only a confirmation of their theory. In this way they distort observation and often neglect very important facts because they do not further their aim….
Claude Bernard, An Introduction to the Study of Experimental Medicine
This article discusses our experience at the one-day Institute of Medicine workshop on vitamin D and calcium. Both of us had an opportunity to make comments before the committee. Here are Paul’s comments and slides and here are Amy’s comments and slides. Note that our 2009 paper in Autoimmunity Reviews[1] discusses some of the science we allude to in further detail.
On the cab ride to the IOM committee meeting on whether to change the dietary reference intake (DRI) of vitamin D, Amy practiced her speech.
The cabbie had been silent for the whole ride, but broke character by talking to us. “So, let me ask you a question,” he said. “Do you take vitamin D?”
“Actually, no, we don’t,” Amy said. Amy explained briefly how our data suggests that the form derived from supplementation is immunosuppressive, meaning that while it may temporarily improve signs and symptoms of disease, we have found it may do so at the cost of long-term health.
We asked him if he took vitamin D. He said yes and explained that a few years back, he had a partially blocked artery. It scared him, so he searched the internet and found that high doses of vitamin D were being recommended for cardiovascular disease. He wasn’t clear about the evidence, but in his words, “I had to do something.”
Which brings us to this point in time. At least in the United States, rates of chronic disease are rising. One recent study predicted that if current trends continue, all Americans will be obese by 2040.[2] Other studies have shown chronic disease is rising at rates faster than could otherwise be explained by an aging population and/or a general increase in population. One recent estimate says that by 2030, 171 million Americans will have a chronic disease. We have to do something, right?
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) is a non-profit organization that was first chartered in 1970. In 2008, IOM appointed a committee of experts whose charge is to reevaluate the DRI of calcium and vitamin D in light of recent research. The committee is expected to produce a report including these recommendations scheduled to be publicly released in May 2010.
An IOM committee with the same purpose last met in 1997 and set the current standard of 400 IU of vitamin D per day for adults. But none of the members of the previous committee are on the current committee despite, collectively, hundreds of MEDLINE citations to their names. Perhaps this suggests that the IOM was trying to exclude scientists who most vocally tout vitamin D’s benefits from the committee.
A great deal has happened since 1997. We learned that hormone replacement therapy (HRT) can cause disease (which led to thousands of premature deaths) even while early observational studies seemed to quite erroneously suggest the opposite.[3] Also, evidence-based medicine has come of age.[4]
For those who are not from this planet or from a Western country anyway, it’s hard to really express how enthusiastic the support for vitamin D supplementation is – at least in the popular media. A quick search of Google News for “vitamin D” has led us to conclude that the few articles that allude to vitamin D’s risks are vastly outnumbered by stories repeating the same unchallenged claims about vitamin D’s perceived benefits.
As part of their deliberation process, the IOM committee commissioned a report by the Tufts Evidence-based Practice Center. For this report, the Tufts group used a pre-existing set of criteria to identify only those studies meeting a certain standard of validity. Those studies that made the cut were independently analyzed.
According to the report’s abstract: “The majority of the findings concerning vitamin D, calcium, or a combination of both nutrients on the different health outcomes were inconsistent.” For a variety of diseases, the report repeatedly finds few or no controlled studies showing an association between vitamin D intake and disease.
Interestingly, Dr. Boullion, the sole speaker at the meeting from Europe (Belgium) conceded that he was confident that the European Union would not raise its recommendations regarding vitamin D intake based on vitamin D research to date.
The complete list of presentations including audio and slides is available on the IOM website.
Arguably the most illuminating speech of the day came before lunch. Dr. Barry Kramer, MD, MPH, works in the Office of Disease Prevention, a division of the NIH. His speech was somewhat dryly titled, “Weighing Scientific Evidence” (PDF of slides) but might just as well have been titled, “Hey, wait a second.”
Invoking the work of Leon Gordis, PhD, Dr. Kramer discussed the “Levels of Decision Making,” and how the requisite amount of evidence for a non-conservative (our word) medical decision increases as the number of people it would affect increases. In other words, a person must make decisions for one’s family or even groups of patients with a different standard of evidence than he or she would when making decisions on behalf of the entire nation and possibly the world.
Dr. Kramer argued that some levels of evidence are not sufficient – at least not to make decisions on behalf of millions. The evidence must meet a minimum standard of validity: randomized controlled studies (RCTs), if not double-blind, placebo-controlled RCTs. According to Dr. Kramer, the history of research has shown in the cases of high-dose paclitaxel, encainide/flecainide, torcetrapib, and HRT, of course, that confounding variables have a way of compromising researchers’ most certain conclusions.
A good example of a confounding variable is smoking in alcohol’s relationship with lung cancer. Alcohol consumption is strongly correlated with lung cancer, but only because people who drink are also more likely to smoke. Another commonly cited example: Volvos may be involved in fewer accidents, but that’s probably because people who choose to drive them are generally older and more safety-conscious.
Dr. Kramer said in the case of observational studies with a relative risk of less than two, he could “spit them [confounding variables] out at the rate of one a second.” His slide lists a few obvious confounders for vitamin D studies: health consciousness, health insurance, and access to care.
Dr. Kramer also made what should be an obvious point: surrogate outcomes do not substitute for reductions in mortality or disease. A surrogate outcome is a variable that is a substitute for a “true outcome”, used because it is easier, quicker or cheaper to measure – and the most common one used in vitamin D studies is serum 25-D although bone mineral density, polyps, and PTH levels are also used. But Dr. Kramer said that none of these surrogate outcomes, in his words, “measure up.”
At the end of the speech Dr. Kramer showed the audience a classic Far Side cartoon, explaining, “Especially when you’re dealing with public health issues and millions of people, it pays you not to shoot first, because once you’ve shot, you can’t ask the questions any more, because your credibility is invested in your message. It pays to ask the questions before you shoot.”
We’re not sure if Dr. Barry Kramer heard our five-minute remarks (we never saw him after lunch), but we were, in essence, presenting a set of explanations for how his note of caution could later prove to be well-justified or even prescient.
Inarguably the most forceful voices for increasing the DRI of vitamin D come from researchers affiliated with the Vitamin D Council, a California-based organization. At the one-day workshop, a total of seven speakers were affiliated with the Vitamin D Council (only Drs. Hollis and Grant are board members; the remainder are listed as “Vitamin D scientists” on the website), and the balance of other speakers could be fairly characterized as strongly sympathetic to their aims.
Many of the most influential papers on vitamin D are published by this group. We searched the online database, Web of Knowledge, for papers published since 2005 that mention “vitamin D” in the title or abstract, and then we sorted that list by number of times cited. The top four papers on that list are by researchers with the Vitamin D Council – as are a number more in the top twenty.
These researchers have a habit of wholeheartedly agreeing with one another; throughout the day, we would hear at least several times something to the effect, “I agree with my colleague.”
What does a bandwagon look like? If you search for the publications in MEDLINE on vitamin D since 2005 in GoPubMed.com and click on the statistics tab, you see how often Vitamin D Council researchers have co-authored each others’ papers. Below is an annotated screenshot (click for full-size PDF) of the professional collaborations in this relatively close-knit and like-minded group. Researchers affiliated with the Vitamin D Council are in red.
Despite a notable lack of data derived from RCTs, those researchers associated with the Vitamin D Council are pushing the IOM committee to raise the DRI of vitamin D by a huge increase – around 5-6 times the current DRI. To achieve this goal, the Vitamin D Council markets the form of vitamin D derived from food and supplements to the public as a nutrient. What harm can high levels of a nutrient cause, right?
Yet although we’re referring to it as vitamin D in this article so that you know what we are talking about, any molecular biologist would confirm that the two main forms of “vitamin” D are actually powerful secosteroids. The active form of vitamin D, 1,25-D, can also function as a hormone. We suspect that people would be less willing to take extremely large amounts of vitamin D if they were actually told, “We’re giving you high doses of a secosteroid that will adjust your hormonal and immune activity in ways not yet fully understood.”
Yet rather than trying to help the public understand these true properties of “vitamin” D, a number of prominent vitamin D researchers still seem content to refer to it as nothing more than the “sunshine vitamin,” some with impressive consistency.
Late in his talk, Dr. Robert Heaney, a researcher affiliated with the Vitamin D Council, said, “We all agree and it is well-established that humans evolved in equatorial East Africa wearing no clothes.” This assumption is repeatedly invoked to justify supplementation with vitamin D at levels that would leave the average American with a 25-D level similar to that of a present-day farmer who works near the equator.
We’re not sure anyone noticed, but in the next talk, Dr. Michael Holick would undercut this very argument. Dr. Holick said that according to his research, students of African descent need three to five times the exposure to ultraviolet light as Caucasians to “barely raise their blood levels” of 25-D. In short, their skin is “such a good sunscreen.” If ancient man had darkly pigmented skin, (according to a paper by Jablonski et al.,[5] man only evolved lighter skin pigment as he left the tropics) then why would he produce the copious levels of vitamin D referenced by Dr. Heaney?
What about climate change? That ancient man evolved in a consistently sunny and hot environment makes no provision for several extended ice ages, which corresponded to key periods in hominid evolution.[6]
What about skin cancer? Say that early man did not hunt and gather at dusk like so many other animals – that early humans did evolve in an unforested environment with no caves, no clothing, and no thick body hair, whiling away his hours sizzling like a big piece of Paleolithic bacon. Why then would just a few burns before the age of 20 dramatically increase[7] the risk of skin cancer? Did humans evolve to get skin cancer?
To clear up the confusion surrounding this issue, we recently contacted Dr. Peter Bogucki, an archaeologist at Princeton University, who is a leading expert on prehistoric man. We asked him to estimate how much sun prehistoric man actually got.
Dr. Bogucki responded, and I trust he won’t mind us quoting him, “You raise a very good question, but I don’t know that there’s a good answer. All we have is skeletal remains. There’s no elemental isotope to track sun exposure.” In the absence of such a marker, our understanding of how much vitamin D early man actually synthesized is complicated by several factors including climate variability,[8] migration, and changes in skin pigment.
Dr. Richard Potts sums up the evidence or lack thereof for inferring how man evolved from specific environmental scenarios:[9]
The study of human evolution has long sought to explain major adaptations and trends that led to the origin of Homo sapiens. Environmental scenarios have played a pivotal role in this endeavor. They represent statements or, more commonly, assumptions concerning the adaptive context in which key hominin traits emerged. In many cases, however, these scenarios are based on very little if any data about the past settings in which early hominins lived.
Dr. Richard Potts, Director of The Human Origins Program, Smithsonian Institution
At this point, it’s probably safe to say that we simply do not know how much sun early man got.
With this in mind, isn’t it a bit less plausible that, when it comes to the ability of the human body to naturally adjust its vitamin D levels for optimal health, current humans are a complete evolutionary bust and must be given truckloads of pills in order to remain healthy?
Dr. Michael Holick is a professor at Boston University, a medical doctor, and may be the world’s leading authority on vitamin D. Since 2005, he has authored or co-authored 59 publications appearing in PubMed on vitamin D (26 more than Dr. William Grant, who is second in that category and a frequent co-author) and he has the distinction of being quoted on vitamin D in nearly every magazine, newspaper, television show and website ever. In his 10-minute statement, Dr. Holick was critical of dermatologists, a group which he singled out for advising the public to avoid creating vitamin D by direct sun exposure. As it happens, Dr. Holick receives large amounts of funding from the UV Foundation, which is in turn sponsored by the Indoor Tanning Association.
Entitled The D-Lightful Vitamin for Health, Dr. Holick remarks sprinkled his speech with a number of pop culture references including mentions of Charlie Brown and Don King. And then there was the clip of Darth Vader telling Luke to come to the Dark Side. It has been a while since we have seen the Star Wars trilogy, but we don’t seem to recall Darth Vader’s evil stemming from his unnecessary prudence.
Dr. Holick went on to claim that sunscreen use blocks 99% of vitamin D production in the skin. This claim is a featured part of his argument, because there has to be a reason why what he views as vitamin D deficiency is so widespread. If there’s evidence to back up this statistic, then our search of the literature cannot find it.
What we did find were three small studies, one of which Dr. Holick authored himself.
One of these studies measured the vitamin D3 (a precursor of 25-D) levels of only eight subjects[10] while another performed no intervention but simply measured the 25-D levels of 20 sunscreen users.[11] The third put only 27 subjects into tanning beds rather than into the sun, which could easily introduce bias.[12] All three are by the same lead author, Dr. Lois Y. Matsuoka.
As it happens, several reviews have refuted the idea that real-world use of sunscreen entirely halts cutaneous production of vitamin D. By real world, we mean people putting sunscreen on themselves for extended periods of time while exposed to the actual sun.
Dr. William L. Scarlett writes in his review, “Several large prospective studies have shown that vitamin D deficiency does not result from regular sunscreen use.”[13]
A review by Drs. Wolpowitz and Gilchrest states, “There is no evidence that customary sunscreen use causes vitamin D deficiency or insufficiency in otherwise healthy individuals.”[14]
One research team, studying patients with xeroderma pigmentosum, a genetic disorder in which patients are unable to repair damage caused by ultraviolet light, found that vitamin D levels are maintained even when patients practice at least six years of rigorous photoprotection and not supplementing with vitamin D beyond their normal dietary intake. Most importantly, the researchers also concluded that the clinical manifestations of vitamin D “deficiency” were absent.
In a 2007 review, Dr. Melanie Palm concludes real-world people tend not to consistently or repeatedly apply sunscreen.[15] She writes: “Most people’s real-life experience with sunscreen is that despite its application, they still sunburn or tan after casual sun exposure.” Dr. Palm goes on to explain, “SPF [sun protection factor] is a strictly defined and Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-regulated measurement based on applying 2 mg/cm2 of product. Studies have shown that most users apply insufficient amounts of sunscreen to meet this FDA standard, and the true SPF obtained is usually less than 50% of that written on the package.”
Dr. Holick also proudly informed the committee of the manner and amount of his vitamin D intake. If you ask us, this is irrelevant. It’s nice that Dr. Holick believes what he says enough to try it on himself, but this kind of data falls to the very bottom of Dr. Kramer’s evidence-based pyramid – the opinion level that should never be used to guide public health decisions.
In the remainder of his talk, Dr. Holick went on to say that no one living in a latitude north of Atlanta, Georgia can make vitamin D in their skin during the winter months. Based on everything else we have heard, maybe you can understand why we’re a bit dubious of this claim.
It seems that one of the unspoken rules of publishing a study on vitamin D is that you must cite Michael Holick – geez, even we have done it. But in light of the conflicting data related to Dr. Holick’s claims, we have to wonder why the man has been accorded that authority and why more people don’t second-guess some of his more definitive statements.
From our perspective, one positive statement Dr. Holick made was when he conceded, as actually many of the pro-vitamin D researchers will do, that vitamin D is not for everyone, specifically not for people with granulomatous diseases such as Crohn’s or sarcoidosis.
A granuloma is a ball-like collection of immune cells which forms when the immune system attempts to wall off substances such as bacteria. But it looks like patients with granulomatous diseases are going to have a tough time if Holick and his colleagues succeed in drowning us in vitamin D. Raising the DRI of vitamin D would inevitably mean that vitamin D would be added to another slew of foods.
When Dr. Holick et al. were questioned about the fact that some people have been shown to develop kidney stones after taking extra vitamin D or that people with granulomatous disease could easily ingest excess levels of vitamin D and become significantly more ill, they seemed ambivalent. In their eyes, if a certain number of people are harmed by taking vitamin D, it should not matter, so long as more people benefit. We find this risk-benefit analysis difficult to stomach having seen first-hand the suffering associated with granulomatous diseases.
Another member of the Vitamin D Council, Dr. Cedric Garland, spoke in his remarks about vitamin D and cancer. After his remarks, a committee member, Dr. JoAnn Manson challenged him on his claim that vitamin D is protective against cancer at high levels of intake. She asked him about the Women’s Health Initiative-led randomized controlled study which trended in the opposite direction when it comes to breast cancer among women who start out with high intakes of vitamin D.[16][17]
Dr. Garland brusquely and repeatedly dismissed the cancer study, saying that the dose of vitamin D administered to subjects, 400 IU – which happens to be the current adult DRI – was “not even a placebo.” In other words he believes that 400 IUs of vitamin D has no biological effect whatsoever. Dr. Manson responded, “I don’t buy it.” Actually, neither do we. To put things in perspective, you’d have to consume 20 eggs or four glasses of vitamin D fortified milk a day in order to get 400 IUs of vitamin D.
Interestingly, when you take a look at the five most frequently cited papers on vitamin D published in the last five years, the first four are authored by researchers affiliated with the Vitamin D Council. But study #5[18] derives its conclusion based on data collected by the Women’s Health Initiative, the same research group whose data Dr. Garland suggested should have no implication on the IOM Committee’s decision-making. That other vitamin D researchers are more than inclined to analyze data from the Women’s Health Initiative suggests that, although Garland may seem like he is an expert speaking on behalf of the entire vitamin D community, not all vitamin D researchers share his views.
We have taken the liberty of annotating in red several of Dr. Garland’s slides to make points about the presentation of data especially as it pertains to vitamin D.
Below is Dr. Garland’s slide showing a strong and consistent increase in the rate of breast cancer since 1935, which he used as a general indication for why it is important to significantly increase the amount of vitamin D added to the food supply.
However, as you can see below, it is very easy to take that same data and “show” the opposite – that vitamin D consumption has led to a dramatic increase in breast cancer.

Another example: Dr. Garland didn’t mention this publication in his speech, but in a 2008 study, his group found a significant association between “low UVB irradiance and high incidence rates of type 1 childhood diabetes.”[19]
Data derived in this observational manner could just as readily be used to show something else entirely.

As you can see in this graphic above, there is a strong apparent association between states that get more sun and teenage pregnancy. But does sun exposure actually cause teen pregnancy? We certainly hope not!
Obviously, you can try to control for confounding variables, as Dr. Garland did in his ‘08 publication, but so too did researchers who repeatedly concluded that hormone replacement therapy was safe. According to Dr. Kramer: “There were literally scores, if not hundreds, of observational studies that showed almost beyond reasonable doubt that hormone replacement therapy would prolong women’s lives, if it were given routinely.”
In the words of Dr. David Ransohoff (who Dr. Kramer quoted in his talk), observational data are “guilty until proven innocent.”
When discussing vitamin D, Dr. Garland put up another thought-provoking chart on the effect of vitamin D and calcium on the development of kidney stones (derived from the Women’s Health Initiative).

Several things about Dr. Garland’s chart are of interest.
In his slot, Dr. Reinhold Vieth was asked to speak on whether there was a safe upper limit/level of vitamin D. As he has stated in at least one paper, his answer was no. In his words, “A prolonged intake of 250 mug (10,000 IU)/d of vitamin D(3) is likely to pose no risk of adverse effects in almost all individuals in the general population.”[20]
Dr. Vieth’s comments echoed those of Dr. Garland, who had earlier concluded, “The benefit/risk ratio for 2,000 IU/day of vitamin D is infinite.”
Obviously, we disagree. We take no comfort in the fact that a person, as demonstrated in case reports, can accidentally take several thousand times the recommended dose of vitamin D and still seem healthy after only several months – which is the only data Dr. Vieth provided. Our attention is directed towards long-term outcomes, time windows which correspond to the slow growth of chronic bacteria and other pathogens that may play a role in causing chronic disease. Also, the full negative effect of immunosuppressants (recall that we have found that 25-D acts as an immunosuppressant) can often only be noted after decades.
Most of the talks had us scratching our heads, trying to figure out why, when 1,25-D is the biologically active form of vitamin D and the sole vitamin D metabolite able to activate the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR), almost every speaker focused on research and recommendations pertaining to 25-D levels. For a brief discussion of the different forms of vitamin D see my (Paul’s) speech.
One of the points both of us tried to make in our own five minute presentations is that the levels of the different forms of vitamin D are jointly regulated by several feedback mechanisms. This means that if one alters the level of one form of vitamin D, levels of the other vitamin D metabolites will almost certainly shift to accommodate the change.
It seems prudent then, that if a study measures 25-D levels, it should measure 1,25-D levels as well. Without the ability to examine the relationship between the two main vitamin D metabolites, how can a researcher fully understand the spectrum of the changes that occur when vitamin D supplementation takes place? Over a decade ago, even the FDA suggested that “1,25-D should be measured in order to support claims of a drug’s osteoporotic activity.” Yet few researchers seem to have heeded this advice. Thus, we would venture to say that studies absent levels of 1,25-D should at least be regarded with less rigor than those studies that test both metabolites.
At some point in a discussion with the Committee, one of the experts mentioned how 1,25-D is difficult to detect. We hope that doesn’t serve as an excuse for not testing 1,25-D. Since most major laboratories – including Quest Diagnostics – can easily perform the test, we would expect any vitamin D researcher would be able to do so as well. The real reason 1,25-D might be “hard” to test is that the 1,25-D test costs more than the 25-D test. But we’re all trying to do the best possible research… right?
The potential significance of 1,25-D is suggested in a forthcoming study published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. In the study, Dr. Greg Blaney of Vancouver, Canada reported on the 25-D and 1,25-D levels of 100 patients with autoimmune disease.

While many of the subjects had very low levels of 25-D, even more of the subjects (approximately 85%) had levels of 1,25-D elevated above the normal range. Under these circumstances can those subjects with low levels of 25-D but elevated levels of 1,25-D truly be considered vitamin D deficient? They are certainly not deficient in the sole form of vitamin D that actually activates the VDR to transcribe approximately 913 genes, TLR2, and the antimicrobial peptides vital to the innate immune response.
When Dr. Heaney was asked to comment on 25-D’s actions by a member of the committee he admitted that he did not know, biologically speaking, how 25-D exerts any of the myriad beneficial effects that he claimed occur when it is elevated. All he could offer was that he knows that 25-D must be present in patients for them to get better.
Is this what passes for biological plausibility among pro-vitamin D researchers?
Later that afternoon, one committee member asked Dr. Cedric Garland, “Do you have a mechanism to explain the outcomes you’re reporting?”
Dr. Garland proceeded to offer his analysis for how supplemental vitamin D, in his words, “eradicates” cancer. Garland pointed to a stack of his papers and asked that it be passed out. When members of the committee seemed hesitant to do so, he went on to explain the details of his model anyway. Dr. Garland shared that he had developed a novel pathogenesis for cancer in which cancer is caused by gaps between cells, which, in simple terms, he believes form as a body becomes vitamin D deficient. This line of inquiry was clearly only in its infancy and had not yet passed muster with cancer researchers. But even if Garland’s model proves to be valid, one would have hoped he would expose it to great scientific scrutiny before using it as the basis for making unequivocal recommendations regarding vitamin D supplementation.
But as Dr. Garland went on to further describe what he believes are vitamin D’s cancer benefits (he was eventually cut off by a member of the committee), he provided a perfect example of the vitamin D expert that we have trouble following. The reason? He used the broad term “vitamin D” when making claims and by doing so, mixed up research that pertains solely to 25-D or 1,25-D. For example, Garland said that vitamin D is able to “upregulate tumor suppressor genes.” Most audience members probably thought he was referring to 25-D since that was the only vitamin D metabolite he ever mentioned. Yet, only 1,25-D is able to activate the Vitamin D Receptor to express Tumor Metastasis Suppressor 1 and other related genes.
Similarly, another talk that we believe should have discussed 1,25-D levels but did not was Dr. Stephanie Atkinson’s remarks on vitamin D in pregnancy. That is because researchers have realized for some time now that 1,25-D is over-expressed during pregnancy.[21] Placental conversion was demonstrated in vitro in 1979,[22] over-expression of 1,25-D in vivo in 1980,[23] and the dysregulated vitamin D metabolism was described in 1981.[24] If 1,25-D becomes elevated during pregnancy, then isn’t it only prudent that studies on vitamin D and pregnancy should measure it and its relationship to 25-D?
We find the relationship between 25-D and 1,25-D important, because it was by observing relationships between the two metabolites that our group was able to realize that in the majority of cases, when a subject’s 25-D level is low, their 1,25-D levels are actually high (AIDS is an exception because HIV completely co-opts the VDR).[25] And it was these relationships that led to our alternate hypothesis for the low levels of 25-D observed in patients with chronic diseases such as cancer. We have found that when 1,25-D is high, the vitamin D feedback pathways naturally downregulate levels of 25-D. This means that what is now viewed as “deficiency” could simply be a result of the chronic disease process. Under such circumstances, allowing people to create extra 25-D by raising the DRI is not only useless but harmful. We believe that our alternative hypothesis at least deserves consideration by the committee, yet are worried that when they are not presented with data on both 25-D and 1,25-D, they will not be able to recognize the pattern that makes our model plausible.
We also find it problematic that none of the experts who spoke at the meeting seem to be aware that microbial metabolites have a profound effect on the activity of the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR). The US NIH now estimates that 90% of cells in the human body are bacterial in origin while only a mere 10% of cells in the body are truly human.[26] Thus, many microbiologists now believe that humans are best viewed as superorganisms in which a plethora of bacterial gene products can effect the activity of our own receptors and genetic pathways.[27] Indeed, independent research teams have found that Mycobacterium tuberculosis downregulates VDR activity by approximately 3.3 times.[28] Active Borellia lowers VDR activity by about a factor of 50 and Epstein-Barr Virus by a factor of around 10.[29] HIV completely shuts down VDR activity. It’s quite likely that other pathogens yet to be fully characterized have also evolved ways to decrease VDR activity because by doing so, they slow important components of the innate immune response that might otherwise render them dead. That the experts who spoke before the committee have failed to factor this knowledge into their study designs suggests that they cannot fully account for the actions of the various vitamin D metabolites in an in vivo environment.
Furthermore, no vitamin D researcher, of whom we are aware, makes provision for research which shows that the current view of autoimmune disease – in which the immune system is believed to attack itself – may be running its course.[30][31][32][33] Many microbiologists now believe that at least some, if not all, of the inflammation that drives the autoimmune disease state is caused by the presence of chronic pathogens.
Inflammation is a clear potential link between infectious agents and chronic diseases.
Siobhán M. O’Connor[31]
With this in mind, the claim by many vitamin D researchers that vitamin D can help patients with autoimmune disease by slowing an “over-active” adaptive immune response no longer jives with an emerging view in the microbiology/immunology community – that both the adaptive and innate immune systems should be kept active in autoimmune disease in order to allow the body to best target disease-causing microbes.
The possible presence of pathogens in autoimmune and other inflammatory disease states such as cancer and atherosclerosis makes our group’s findings on vitamin D’s actions more plausible. When the immune system is fighting a microbe, it continually releases inflammatory molecules in an effort to kill the pathogen.[34] If the pathogen dies, endotoxins[35] and cellular debris are generated. This leads to increased symptoms of malaise on the part of a person who harbors such microbes.
It follows that any substance that slows the innate immune response will decrease this battle between man and microbe, causing the patient to feel better. The more the immune response is slowed, the greater the decrease in inflammation and inflammatory markers. But while such measures can make the patient appear as if they are getting better for years, ultimately the bacteria causing their disease are able to spread much more easily and exacerbate the disease state over the long-term.
Our molecular and clinical data shows that 25-D, like the pathogens we describe above, binds the Vitamin D Receptor and slows its activity.[1] Since the VDR largely controls the innate immune response, increasing 25-D levels could easily display the pattern of immunosuppression described above. This begs the question – is 25-D a miracle curative substance or simply an excellent palliative?
If we are correct and 25-D slows VDR activity then we have found that patients who are chronically ill benefit from decreasing their vitamin D intake. This is because their VDR activity already appears compromised by the pathogens they harbor. Yet this should not be interpreted to mean we think healthy people can’t consume vitamin D. However, our data suggest that healthy people can get the vitamin D they need by eating a well-rounded diet that does not include fortified foods and getting sun exposure similar to that of a person taking measures to avoid an increase in skin cancer risk.
In our speeches, we raised the possibility that low levels of 25-D are caused by the inflammatory disease process and that taking vitamin D suppresses the immune response.
In total, the two of us spoke for 600 seconds, and we’re not sure we convinced anyone of anything. By all indications, a discussion of molecular mechanisms was outside the committee’s comfort zone. Most would probably say that they are uninterested in software emulations of molecular interactions, no matter how provocative or far-reaching the conclusions they imply. If we had to pin the members of the committee down on it, I think they would say that when it comes to our clinical trial, we needed better controlled data such as the kind we intend to generate as a part of our West China Hospital collaboration. For this reason, we opted for a more measured tone.
During Paul’s speech, there was some tittering in the audience (not the committee). He saw one prominent researcher, who shall remain nameless, chuckling. For a moment, he thought he had spinach in his teeth or was trailing toilet paper from his shoe, and then he realized that, oh yes, he was telling 50 PhDs and MDs that their conclusions have the potential to be very misguided.
After the day’s business concluded, everyone began to file out. One woman though turned to us and said, “What a bunch of rebels!”
Glad we could liven up the workshop for you, ma’am.
Although during our speeches, we asked people to come by and ask us about our work, only Dr. Tony Norman did. He did not seem convinced, but did invite us to submit an abstract for a poster presentation at an upcoming vitamin D conference in Belgium.
If you ask most Vitamin D Council researchers, they would say that this is the “end game,” and there is already more than enough evidence to raise the level of vitamin D added to the food supply. During the question and answer sessions, some of these scientists such as Dr. Garland were dismissive of evidence to the contrary. It was as if many were saying, “Look – there is no downside here. It is demonstrably impossible that consumption of vitamin D can cause harm. If we don’t have all the requisite evidence, it doesn’t matter. Lives are at stake!” We suspect that even if the committee decides to maintain current vitamin D levels, there are other ways to convince the public to increase vitamin D intake.
But despite the media’s stampede to promote the “sunshine vitamin,” the evidence is ambiguous and the issue of biological plausibility – not knowing how 25-D exerts its claimed benefit – is troubling as well. Dr. Kramer said that the root of science is the art of thinking hard about how you could be wrong. Is this something the vitamin D research community is actively doing? Looking through everything that was presented throughout the day, how many confounding variables might Dr. Kramer have identified? How many surrogate outcomes could he point to?
It is difficult to anticipate exactly what decision the IOM Committee will arrive at. However, from this perspective, it would be hard to see how the group could raise the dietary reference intake in light of such an equivocal set of conclusions in the Tufts report – in spite of considerable pressure to do so.
Will an IOM committee ever emerge from this climate of consensus and consider research that would cause them to lower the DRI of vitamin D?
Here are a few possibilities:
After the meeting adjourned, we were approached by a nattily attired man in his thirties, originally from Barcelona. He offered us a ride home to New York. His Mercedes SUV looked quite appealing, so we skipped the bus and took him up on his offer.
On the ride home, this fellow – who told us he had a PhD in oncology – told us he agreed with the sentiment of our remarks and expressed disappointment with the lack of rigor of the science presented. The word he used to describe the majority of presentations was “pseudoscience.” He told us that, based on what he saw, vitamin D was harmful and that it was only a matter of time before the hype surrounding vitamin D would fizzle.
Although we felt validated, we wondered why he had attended the conference in the first place. It turns out that he was an entrepreneur, had just bought the patent for a new formulation of calcium, and wanted the discussion at the IOM workshop to help him decide how much vitamin D to add to his product.
He seemed like a honest and honorable guy until, that is, he let us know that despite his negative view of vitamin D, he intended to add high levels of it to his supplement anyway, so long as the medical community and public viewed it as beneficial. Later on, he said, he planned to strategically remove it “just before the vitamin D bubble bursts.”
Well, isn’t that wonderful? Some reassurance about the people behind products aimed at “improving our health.”
In that vein, we couldn’t help remembering the short speeches delivered by members of the Dairy Council as well as a yeast company, whose goal in speaking before the Committee were simply to urge the Committee that, if more vitamin D is added to the food supply, it should be added to the food they market. This would give these interests the ability to claim more health benefits from their food and, of course, make more money.
In sum, our adventure in the nation’s capital left us with a bad taste in our mouths. We’d like to wash it away but we’re worried that by the time we do so, no drink won’t be fortified with vitamin D.
55 Responses for "Second-guessing the consensus on vitamin D"
Thank you. I enjoyed that very much.
~ Amy and Paul, thank you so much for providing us with your notes and comments from the meeting and for speaking at the meeting on the alternative theory on Vitamin D supplementation. My hope is that the members of this committee will not be permitted to ignore this data when forming their recommendations on Vitamin D supplementation.
My opinions and a question…
You wrote:
“The real reason 1,25-D might be “hard” to test is that the 1,25-D test costs more than the 25-D test. But we’re all trying to do the best possible research… right?”
~My opinion:
I think that quite possibly the real reason members of the Vitamin D Council do not test for 1,25-D along with 25-D is that gathering this data would lead these researchers to the same conclusions about these secosteroids that Trevor Marshall, PhD in Biomedical Engineering, has concluded about “Vitamin D” supplementation; that one of the effects of Vitamin D supplementation is immunosupression which can lead to an increased risk of many chronic diseases. Anyway, they may come to that conclusion if they can figure out the difference between the active vs. inactive forms of “Vitamin D”, which one activates the VDR in humans and then combine that knowledge with L-form bacteria. I’m sorry, am I asking them to think too hard here?
You wrote:
“This means that what is now viewed as “deficiency” could simply be a result of the chronic disease process. Under such circumstances, allowing people to create extra 25-D by raising the DRI is not only useless but harmful. We believe that our alternative hypothesis at least deserves consideration by the committee, yet are worried that when they are not presented with data on both 25-D and 1,25-D, they will not be able to recognize the pattern that makes our model plausible.
~ Question:
What can be done by us, the American public, to ensure that the IOM Council members who are reviewing Vit D recommendations for supplementation will not ignore the currently available research on 1,25-D, 25-D and the VDR?
You wrote:
“Epilogue: The ride home …He seemed like a honest and honorable guy until, that is, he let us know that despite his negative view of vitamin D, he intended to add high levels of it to his supplement anyway, so long as the medical community and public viewed it as beneficial. Later on, he said, he planned to strategically remove it “just before the vitamin D bubble bursts.”
~ My thoughts:
My guess is that this same individual who is planning to add Vitamin D to his supplement is probably currently researching the expanding market potential in medical services and treatments for chronic disease so that he can invest the billions of dollars he makes on his supplement wisely in the future. Anything for a buck! Right? I’m mean geez, if he doesn’t make a gazillion dollars, how will he find gas money to drive his big SUV?
Take away thought; beware of seemingly generous individuals offering you a free ride in a large, comfortable SUV, even if they appear to agree with you they probably have ulterior motives! Remember, all that glitters is not gold!
Hi Dee D and DeeDee,
Thank you both for your interest in the article.
Dee D –
Paul and I definitely will think twice before getting a ride home with SUV-driving strangers. By the time we got to Baltimore, I really wished I was in the driver’s seat, so I could drop that guy off on the curb.
Regarding your first point – when it comes to 1,25-D levels, I believe testing the metabolite would complicate the prevailing model of vitamin D that the Vitamin D Council seems to actively work to keep simplistic.
I think it’s great that you want to be proactive about making sure the IOM committee makes a decision based on all the available evidence, however, I’m not sure how the general public can get involved. The IOM committee is most inclined to listen to medical professionals when it comes to this issue. You might consider taking this article to your physician or any open-minded medical professionals you know and encourage them to understand where we’re coming from and urge them to contact the IOM committee. If I think of anything more, I’ll let you know.
Yes, I think quite a few people stand to make a pretty penny off vitamin D as they would any other substance surrounded by such hype.
Thanks again for your comment.
Amy
Thank you Paul and Amy! Excellent job given the constraints of the 5 minutes limit on your speeches! I am just undertaking the Marshall Protocol after spending a month studying it. And all the points you make, in concert with the clinical study results being seen in the MP study, have convinced me that the Vitamin D EXPERTS have it WRONG! I took mega doses of Vitamin D for years after being brain-washed by the EXPERTS… and now I have a diagnosis of ALS! If vitamin D is so wonderful and protective… how could this happen to an otherwise healthy guy after years of vitamin D supplementation?
Of course I am just one person and nobody is claiming excess vitamin D causes ALS! But, on the other hand, for me personally, from my experience, large doses of vitamin D certainly do not appear to protect someone from ALS! I can only surmise that this may also apply to many other so-called autoimmune diseases.
So thanks again for your work and excellent review of the conference.
Hi Amy & Paul,
Thanks for such a wonderful and thorough account. You told us a lot about the social climate in which science advances (or fails to advance).
It’s appalling that a glib routine referencing celebrities and movie characters was presented as a scientific presentation and accepted as such. It’s even more appalling that the people who committed that breach have any power whatsoever over our nutritional choices and health.
The fellow with the SUV only reminded me that if people are willing to pay for something, no matter how unsavory that thing is, someone somewhere will be selling. The fact that there is such a demand for the D substance just goes to show how grossly many of us have allowed ourselves to be misled by the likes of the Vitamin D Council. Injecting reason into not only this debate, but into the general level of discourse in our culture, is a challenging and critically important job and I thank everyone involved with ARF for taking it on.
Sincerely,
shegeek
Hi,
I am very impressed about your theory of vitamin D and really afraid that it is true. I´m just wondering how would you explain the numerous studies which result suggests that vitamin d has benefits for example for bone thickness, preventing heart attacks etc.? Is there an optimal amount of vitamin d which will give the benefits but not shut down the immune system?
Thanks and best regards,
Pentti Hemminki
HI Pentti,
Well, first of all, if you look at the IOM report, you’ll see that there’s a lot of ambiguity among the best evidence out there. At this point, I don’t think the vitamin D researchers have proven anything.
There are several kinds of problems with the conclusions of the pro-vitamin D studies. Here’s the summary:
1. Study authors conclude that 25-D is an valid proxy for vitamin D status when in fact the body seems to naturally downregulate levels of that metabolite in cases of chronic disease. In states of “deficiency,” we would argue your body is doing exactly what it can to limit the negative effects of the immunosuppressive secosteroid.
2. They are not done across long enough time periods. Chronic pathogens takes years or decades to multiply. It may be possible to show a temporary improvement in symptoms if a sick person takes vitamin D. Just don’t expect that improvement to last!
You can read more here:
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf
In our opinion, the optimal amount of vitamin D is what you might naturally get from unsupplemented food and exposure to light.
Best,
Paul
“By all indications, a discussion of molecular mechanisms was outside the committee’s comfort zone. Most would probably say that they are uninterested in software emulations of molecular interactions, no matter how provocative or far-reaching the conclusions they imply.”
No, the truth is that people trust clinical trials over software modeling. I could come up with a software model that would provide whatever provocative, far-reaching, a priori conclusion that I desired. Kind of like people did with climate change. (Note: I am not the least bit skeptical about an anthropogenic role in climate change, just saying that using a computer to model reality is never as effective as getting your data from reality itself.) It’s called a model for a reason. It’s not the real thing. An architect’s model of a building is a drastic oversimplification and your software models rae no different. Until you can demonstrate what you think you know in vitro, you will fail to convince the many PhDs and MDs in the audience at IOM.
What do supporters of the Marshall Protocol think about a new study from Gombart et al that demonstrates how the apparently immunosuppressive effect of Vitamin D is actually due to improved response of the innate immune system and suppression of inflammation?
Exaptation of an ancient Alu short interspersed element provides a highly conserved vitamin D-mediated innate immune response in humans and primates.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=19607716
Here is a non-technical summary for non-PhDs:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/osu-kfo081809.php
There are literally thousands of articles in PubMed that demonstrate the benefits of having a high serum level of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, and the vast majority of people feel better after spending a reasonable amount of time in the sun. Furthermore, virtually all life on this planet relies on light from the sun to survive. You will have a hard time contradicting these basic truths with your software models.
Thanks for your comment.
Allow me to respond to several of your points.
1. The only reason we say our discussion was “outside the committee’s comfort zone” was, because, after our talks, a prominent member of the Committee told us exactly this. When any member of the Committee could just as easily post a comment here saying that this is not the case, we have no reason to misrepresent this.
2. You say: “There are literally thousands of articles in PubMed that demonstrate the benefits of having a high serum level of 25-hydroxyvitamin D.” You are repeating a fallacy that goes by the name Post hoc ergo propter hoc, which means, “A occurred, then B occurred. Therefore, A caused B.” If you re-read this article, or better yet our paper, you’ll see why this may not be so.
3. You say: “The truth is that people trust clinical trials over software modeling.” If you haven’t done so already, read the evidence-based Tufts report. Why does the best evidence show an equivocal benefit for vitamin D?
4. Thanks for the interesting paper. I’ll have to read it more when I have time. Your comments suggest you don’t understand how there are multiple forms of vitamin D, which have different types of molecular activity. If 1,25-D did the same thing as 25-D (activating the VDR), why does the body even bother hydroxylating it???
Paul
Paul, what you’re asking the world to do is ignore a large and growing body of evidence in favor of an obscure theory advanced by an electrical engineer who can only support his research with computer models (and his own anecdotal conclusions about sarcoidosis). Who could trust that, when it contradicts a vast body of research coming out of labs at the world’s top universities?
Whether or not the “comfort zone” comment came from a member of the audience at IOM or not, my statement still stands: it’s unreasonable for an intelligent person to believe computer models over published research. If you can prove it in silico, why can’t you prove it in the lab? When are you guys going to start publishing some real research instead of just citing Marshall’s old papers?
The studies that show a positive role for 25-D in the body aren’t simply demonstrating that A caused (or prevented) B. They are showing that A also caused C, D, E, F, G, and so on, until we run out of letters. You are making a Type II error in response to my perceived Type I. The logic of researchers from Harvard, Boston University, and elsewhere isn’t as flawed as you want people to believe.
I read through your recent paper (“The Alternative Hypothesis”) but I found it to be nothing more than a regurgitation of a position that has already been established; a position which is supported not by original research, but by faulty logic and cherry-picking. For example, what concrete evidence is there for the statement, “25-hydroxyvitamin D is immunosuppressive”? If you read through the recent paper from Gombart et al, you will find evidence to the contrary — evidence which neatly fits into your molecular models while inconveniently contradicting your chosen position on the benefits of vitamin D. To put it in laymen’s terms, sunlight kills germs.
It’s wrong to say that “the best evidence” is summarized by the Tufts meta-analysis. There have been very many well-designed studies on Vitamin D, yet the report looks at them in the abstract, putting studies with low participation or poor design on equal footing with more robust studies. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The studies that “failed to find” are simply not as useful as those that DID find something. A less cynical review of the literature would find that low 25-D is associated with many lethal diseases, and that high 25-D appears to be protective against those diseases. That is the position of the majority of the audience at IOM, a well-educated group that you have not succeeded in contradicting just yet.
As for your question on hydroxylation, that’s a good one – why don’t you get in the lab and figure it out, instead of authoring theoretical position papers?
Please do not misrepresent my words. For example, I said the comment came from a prominent member of the committee – not a member of the audience.
I realize that a lot of prominent researchers at prestigious universities are fully convinced that vitamin D is protective against chronic disease. Are you really saying we can’t question the research of people whose titles are more important than our own? Or that Trevor Marshall can’t do the same? Wouldn’t you admit that science progresses when prevailing ideas are challenged?
The mismatch between the certainty of people such as yourself and the best evidence truly is a disconnect I have trouble ignoring.
I agree that there are number of diseases associated with low levels of 25-D. But, I might remind you, 25-D is a surrogate outcome. It’s perfectly reasonable that we would hypothesize that low 25-D levels are a result rather than a cause of the disease process.
In my opinion, your willingness to discount large parts of the Tufts evidence-based report speaks for itself.
I will remind our readers that the null hypothesis is that vitamin D has no beneficial effect. And that according to the scientific method, you must meet a higher standard of proof to validate the alternative hypothesis compared to the null hypothesis.
Paul
Hello,
Wow, I have just been introduced to the Marshall Protocol and from what I have read in the last hour has really got the juices flowing. I have been diagnosed with over 6 autoimmune diseases and one being Sarcoidosis of the lungs and skin. My doctor has me on another round of Predisone and told me to increase the Vitamin D. I think I will stop taking the over the counter extra and watch the diet to see if I am getting the Vitamin D there and that will be all. I had read somewhere else about this, but the doctors I use, well we will leave this to a more private conversation. Please e-mail me and I wil explain it all.
Again, thanks for the very valuable information.
Sam.
Hi Sam,
Thank you for your comments about Bacteriality, and I am glad you’re interested in our research. The way you’re being treated right now is purely by immunosuppression. As you probably read, our research shows that Prednisone, like vitamin D, is an immnunosuppressant.
We don’t recommend people with autoimmune diseases take immunosuppressants. This places you at a decision point in which you must decide how you want to treat your illness. An increasing number of researchers are implicating chronic bacteria in sarcoidosis and other autoimmune diseases, and the Marshall Protocol is the only treatment to date that attempts to eradicate these bacteria.
This means that those of us who advocate the MP don’t believe immunosuppressants are helpful, because they present immune system from killing these bacteria.
Here’s the catch: if you’re going to use the MP in an effort to recover, you’re going to have to deal with a bacterial die-off reaction, which will make your autoimmune conditions worse before they get better.
Also, the fact that you have so many diagnoses suggests your bacterial load might be quite high. This mean it will almost certainly take you several years before you reach a state of improvement on the MP. On the other hand, you may stick with your immunosuppressive therapies (including any supplemental vitamin D). Immunosuppressants works, because they keep the immune system from killing bacteria and subsequently stifle the painful bacterial die-off reaction. These treatments can make you feel at least temporarily better, but your disease are never going to go away.
Will the MP work for you? Based on your diagnoses, almost certainly. But if you’re not sure, try a therapeutic probe:
http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:starting:therapeutic_probe
Best,
Amy
Great article.
Is it me, or does the study referenced by A.Eisenstein only mention 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D? At least, I found no reference to 25-D anywhere. If so, this basically repeats what Marshall et al have been saying all along.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong, it’s important.
Fascinating–and well-written–article. I’m a medical writer who has covered the Vitamin D issue for the dermatology community. They are a natural ally to your cause. I suggest you present at some derm meetings…and tuck some studies under your belts.
Hi Rebecca,
Glad you enjoyed it. While it’s certainly not true of every dermatologist, I think most would state that it’s important that sick patients take vitamin D. Their bone of contention is how they get it. They would prefer patients take a supplement. Obviously, we see things differently. But maybe this will change in time….
Best,
Paul
You’re right, Andy. The paper talks about 1,25-D, the active metabolite of vitamin D – the very metabolite which Blaney et al showed is elevated in patients with autoimmune disease. So, yes, this paper appears to be largely consistent with Marshall.
Paul
Paul,
You’re absolutely right. My thought is that they are your ally in the sense of being skeptical of claims being put forth by people funded through the tanning industry.
Rebecca
I am interested in the Marshall Protocol but I find your website forum to be a bit cliquish. The details seem vague and the answers always seem to be the same.
But I understand that you are running a study in China. There is a lot of information absent from your press release. What are the details? How many people will be included? Will there be a control group? How long will the study last? And what is the time frame for the public to have access to the results, if any?
I have fibromyalgia, along with two others in my extended family, but I’m hesitant to try something before it’s been formally tested. The “underwater) portion of your website forum (the iceberg diagram on http://autoimmunityresearch.org) makes me uneasy. It makes me wonder why people who are implementing or trying the MP aren’t being more transparent about the results and/or consequences. I just want to know if it’s something that can help me and my family members with FM.
Hi Rowan,
The press release you’re referring to is an announcement of our collaboration. The study design is now being hammered out. Yes, we do anticipate that the study will be a controlled trial and that it will last over several years.
I don’t think there’s anything too sinister about the Phase Two/Three forums not being readily accessible. It just gives patients an opportunity to freely share their progress in semi-private fashion. Say you had a question about diarrhea or something along those lines. Would you really want the whole world to know about it?
The goal of the trial is to prove the Marshall Protocol can work for patients with a chronic inflammatory disease in a well-controlled clinical environment. If you have serious doubts about the treatment, don’t do it. You and your physician need to make a decision for yourself based on the best available evidence. No one here is going to tell you what to do.
Best,
Paul
Hey guys I am really impressed by this site and the presentations you have made. It seems like breakthrough theory
I have one nagging question though -if we take that microbiota and immune system suppression is the cause of many chronic disease, why do you only concentrate on one specific way for reversing it? -Binding VDR receptors with ligands is only one of the many ways TH1 immune response could be suppressed
Why there is so much attention paid to benicar , ignoring all other ways to regulate immune system response?
There is lack of clinical research about benicar for upregulating Th1 response and provide anti inflammatory properties, while there are other drugs (cycloferon, licopid, immunomax for example) which were proven to have this effect , some of them been on the market for 30-40 years and there a dozens of papers and clinical research done on them proving their effectiveness in this role.
Benicar looks like a gimmick compared to them. I do admit it might be effective in special cases where the mechanism of immune downregulation is solely caused by ligand binding, but immune system is proven to be wrecked in multitude of ways by other pathogens, why limit protocol with benicar?
Hi Max,
Although we have more data than you may realize, we need further research to validate that Benicar acts in the manner we propose. There are several reasons why we stick with Benicar over other therapies, but one of the main ones is that we can make patients sensitive to antibiotics for a long period of time – according to our early observational data at least – to the point of recovery or at least significant improvement. Obviously, we could use more data on that too.
If you ask an MP patient, the problem is not that Benicar isn’t effective enough, but that, when taking with pulsed low doses of antibiotics, it is “too effective.” That’s why some patients must go really slowly on this treatment.
Honestly, I don’t know anything about the substances you mention. A quick Google search reveals that these are essentially supplements, sold by vitamin companies. Maybe I’m biased but that’s cause for concern. Who knows how these substances actually “balance” immune function?
I will say that for such an effective group of medications it does seem odd that they have been around for so long and haven’t “broken through.”
Best,
Paul
Max,
Check out this resources for a number of articles that document the use of Benicar for problems other than hypertension. http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/3224.html
Also, the resent study that shows Benicar can reverse coronary artery disease and vessel damage from inflammation.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-180188644.html
Benicar is not a gimmick. The use of Benicar in Th1 disease is based in science.
Deedee
Given one of the latest transcripts I read http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/CMBF_2009_Dalian_Transcript.pdf and information about reducing expression of VDR by BB 50 fold (and I read original article too) it leaves me in serious doubts whether benicar alone would be enough. Knocking out foreign ligands does nothing when receptor is not transcribed
“Substances” I mentioned are pharmaceutical drugs (those were brand names though) with extensive clinical research and data. They are used as supplementary(to antibiotics) treatment for wide range of chronic and acute bacterial and viral infections , including chlamydiosis, syphilis , tuberculosis, mononucleosis , hepatitis , HIV etc.
Immunomodulators were developed in Soviet Union and are one of the interesting aspects western research seems to be mostly oblivious to (another such interesting aspect is bacteriophages)
Anyways I assume language is one of the barriers- absolute majority of articles and research papers in public access are in Russian. Another barrier is that none of big pharma in US or Europe owns patents to those drugs so no one interested in promoting them. there is were some interesting development in Soviet union medicine due to certain level of isolation we did not share exact same course as western medicine (albeit it was very close) and there was some research done in the areas mostly ignored in the West
Cycloferon (Циклоферон) is just one of the many immunomodulatory drugs, one I researched first because it was mentioned in as in connection to lyme therapy
I don’t know how you found that they are “supplements sold by vitamin companies” as quick search on pubmed reveals dozens of articles :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=DetailsSearch&term=licopid&log$=activity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=DetailsSearch&term=cycloferon&log$=activity
You can also use google translator to get some impression about vast array of clinical application and research done
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polysan.ru%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dpublik_index_06
And here is an overview of immunomodulators in general (though translate destroys it, you can still see 6 major groups there )
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.primer.ru%2Fmanuals%2Fchlam%2Ftherapy_immunomod.htm
p.s. I am Russian hence I had no problems reading original articles , aside the fact that I had to learn about immune system – it is relatively complex and poorly understood subject with many blank spots. And I must admit that I did not understood all of the material in its entirety given my presently limited knowledge and experience with this domain
Hi Paul & Amy,
Thank you for this excellent article. I suspect that the issue of releasing biased research is simply a matter of how large (nutritional) companies can maximize their profits. Research Universities do not receive huge grants from these companies for no reason. Nutrition and food Industry Lobbyists are paid to do a job and this does not entail protecting the public (unless this means more profit). When you have huge amounts of money available to support any Politician with any kind of influence in this area this is the result. How much did those 10 scientists get paid by Exxon and the other big refineries to promote the “fallacy” of Global warming? In my view, promoting the benefits of Vit. D is no different. There is no incentive because there is no monetary benefit to these scientists to consider your research.
The simple fact is that if you had the resources to set up an equivalent alternative to the Vitamin D Council you would have a lot more support in the scientific community.
Hey ,Dee ,I am aware of the effects of Benicar , albeit ,ironically enough, many of the Benicar effects I learned are from web page with rather logical and interesting critique of MP itself (Mark London’s post http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm) . Some of the stuff there actually suggests that benicar effects are in fact immunosuppressive
That paper btw is the strongest argument against MP I found. -Not against bacterial origin of chronic disease but against MP as treatment. I am presently leaning n a side that MP has no solid scientific basis and its effectiveness is largely of empirical nature. And most of success of which could be attributed to long term combo ABX
MP contains claims to avoid pretty much everything , many of them quite unsubstantiated, for I could not find any papers proving that all the abx MP advises against have significant immunosupressive effects.
Anyways I find the theory about microbiota and chronic infections brilliant, but the protocol itself questionable. – Reasoning is quite dogmatic and there is nothing suggesting that any significant research done in using other methods.
Quite possibly MP works if ligands on VDR receptors is only thing causing problems , but there is no proof that such is the case – in fact there is proof that opposite happens -many other ways exist to shutdown and evade immune system . No reason to think it will be good for immuno suppressive chronic infections (like Lyme,EBV,TB).
What I find more disturbing is no apparent attempts at finding other methods -except already postulated by Marshall .
If your goal is jump start immune system, why dont at least research in the already existing methods for it? Then tell why it is working or not?
Where is proof that abx in higher doses are more harmful? Why you against beta lactams ignoring the possibility of cell wall bacteria present (BB spirochettes),
Max, we all have to make our own choices, don’t we? As I see it, you have the “wait and see” choice. Wait and see yourself fall apart? No thanks. Or, the “wait and see and then take prednisone” choice, another “unproven” treatment. Or, I should say, unproven for 45+ years and now being proven to be ineffective, as the symptoms are masked and the disease marches on. Or you could wait for the gold standard of double-blind clinical trials knowing that 1. sarcoidosis is a rare disease and it is on no one’s radar screen for funding. 2. the orphan drug program is not interested in testing drugs that can not be patented and sold for lots of money and 3. even if there could magically be clinical trials for the MP, how long can you afford to wait before you would be convinced that the treatment was effective?
Dr. Wonder Drake from Vanderbilt is now saying that sarcoidosis is caused by a cousin of TB. Interesting. There are studies from around the world implicating bacteria. Then there is the biofilm theory, which might explain why different bacterias and bacteria DNA have been found in sarcoidosis tissue. But you see this is a “rare” disease and there is just no money for much research, especially unprofitable research, so we tend to only get little bits and pieces, like the Stephen Tilley study with mino form UNCA. I contacted him because the results were dramatic, and he told me that he had to stop the study due to ….you got it…..no funding.
The other treatment choice is to try the ‘experimental’ MP. I asked 6 doctors prior to beginning MP if they thought it could HURT me. No, they all said, and two enthusiastically encouraged me to try the protocol. One of those doctors was a neurosurgeon at Boston U for many years and saw the devastation of neuro sarc. He said the disease looks and acts like a bacterial infection and after many surgeries, he believes it is. Believes. No proof there either. Just a neurosurgeon’s years of experience.
Now, I know that no one knows the long-term effects of taking Benicar for years. But I do know the long-term effects of sarcoidosis and so I was willing to try the protocol. You see my husband also has sarcoidosis. I have seen it destroy a lot of his lungs, and take away his hearing. Call me “motivated.”
After a year on the protocol, my chest Xray is almost entirely clear except for one small area where a lymph nodes was removed. My “asthma” is gone. My muscle aches and screaming arches are 90% healed. I don’t know what the future holds, but this is certainly encouraging to me.
So good luck in waiting for the proof you need to try the MP. In the meantime, I hear there are a number of clinical trials for unproven treatments you can sign up for, such as designer steroids or the nicotine patch. None of those made much sense to me, but after much research, the MP at least made sense.
Hey, I could be wrong. I am taking what I think is the best shot at healing so I can perhaps have another 20 or 30 decent years on this planet.
By the way, re-read London’s paper. In the paper, he clearly says that the MP probably is a good treatment for sarcoidosis. In fact, I cooresponded with him prior to starting the protocol and he was encouraging, in spite of his critical paper.
Also, I did start out with mino at higher levels (not the MP) and my eyes became very inflammed. After I started the MP–Benicar and smaller doses, I did not re-experience the eye problems.
Deedee, you present a very persuasive argument for why it may be worth trying the MP. I have see similar improvements in my own health problems after 17 months on the Marshall Protocol. BuI wouldn’t waste anymore time or energy convincing Max of anything. I have spent enough time on message boards to recognize a “troll” when I read others posts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Deedee, I think MP maybe right thing for sarcoidosis, from Mark London papers its clear that benicar does have beneficial effects , despite them not being exactly of same origin as Marshall claims.
My problem is though I do not have sarcoidosis. I have Lyme
. Lyme immunosupression and multiple forms do pose a problem MP seem not addressing.
Its great MP works for sarcoidosis, it was my wishful thinking that it might work for lyme (and there were claims about it too) , that’s why I started researching it . Now it seems though that it is mostly sarcoidosis specific protocol, with unclear benefits other infections -as it is mostly people with sarcoidosis who report beneficial results.
Anyways its great it worked for you ( btw did it help your husband too?) . I just wish there was more research done into immunemodulation part of it. So far it – it is benicar, and nothing else. heck there are even no immune function tests done (on MP patients thats it) to prove whether it has the proposed effect or not, so no one really know what real effect it is .I hope that China study will shed some light on it
I guess its no harm to try MP , my biggest dilemma is whether I should supplement VitD or not. -since 25 is already low for me (12 ng/dl) I guess I can try MP for couple of weeks and see for myself. If not I will try more mainstream approach (still not sure about VitD supplementation even if I go that way)
p.s. DeeD I think you fit the definition of a troll perfectly. You present no arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks, your posts have no value neither substance.
Just to be clear, Mark London has never written a paper of any kind.
Well I meant his Mark London’s web page post about MP. I do not know whether he wrote it or not . AFAIR It is not published anywhere so I guess couldnt count as research paper
Btw , Paul, can you please answer why there is no data I could find about immune system tests for patient running MP? And here http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:tests , none of immune system tests are listed?
I am talking IL,IFN,TNF values. Which are present in most papers on immune system modulation . I would think if you treat auto immune disease and try to do a clinical trial for it you would run those tests!
Max, perhaps you are not a troll, but is it clear to me from your last post that you need to do more research on the MP before you even consider trying this therapy. Please note that Vitamin D supplementation while on the MP is contraindicated. If you need more information you can post questions at http://curemyth1.org/ and view video presentations at http://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall#play/uploads
Max, why don’t you go to vimeo.com and search for all of T. Marshall’s videos and watch them all. Watch them a couple of times. I have. He explains very well how Benicar enables the Vitamin D receptor, how bacteria changes genes, and how the body is tricked to work against itself for the benefit of the biofilm. This will help you make your decision.
I can tell you from personal experience that antibiotics while you are on Benicar is a whole other thing. I can’t imagine taking full doses. For example, when I tried to go to a Phase II antibiotic, my lymph nodes and spleen let me know it was too much, and I had a high BUN for a few weeks. Both my family doctor and my integrated doctor told me that it was my immune system processing the dead bacteria. I backed off on the small doses of antibiotics I was on, kept the Benicar in place, and in a few weeks all was back to normal.
Avoiding D is an important–no essental– part of the protocol. You really can not do the protocol without lowering your D. When you take Benicar, it will bring your D25 and D125 down, but you really do need t control you D intake, as well. Have you had your D125 checked? That might be a good starting point. Also, you might want to google Baughmans research on D and sarcoidosis, so you can see that at least for granuloma disease, there is a body of research that D is harmful to some people. It is not the “fountain of youth” some claim. In fact, my sarcoidosis did not become apparent on CXR until I had been supplementing a year (and except for what I thought was asthma kicking up and muscle pains–it was sarcoidosis– I felt great.)
You really can’t try the MP for a few weeks and learn anything about whether it is working or not. For the first 6 months, I had a lot of herxing as the bacteria died off. I had the weirdest electrical sensations in my legs, feet and arms. When I got through the other side of that, I had great improvements in the muscle pain that had plagued me for years. Also, once you commit, it is a process to stop for most people.
It seems like you need to think about it more. I spent weeks doing research on the internet, reading articles, talking to naysayers and fans of the MP and consulting with my doctors before I decided that this is the best choice for me.
I don’t know what the mainstream approach is for Lymes Disease treatment. Is there an effective one? There are not many options for those of us with sarcoidosis. I do know there are a number of people with Lymes that have used the MP after the mainstream approaches were exhausted. You might want to go to the MP sites and search, “LYME” and see what kind of posts you can read.
I suppose Dee D’s frustration is, in part, the insistence of so many critics for proof that the MP is proven, when there are few options and for many of us, those options have not had the rigorous “proof” that critics of the MP demand. In fact, the standard prednisone for sarc is now being shown to not only be ineffective in stopping the disease, there is some evidence it can make sarcoidosis worse. Yet, that remains the mainstream standard for treatment and little proof that it works is asked for because mainstream medicine is prescribing the drug.
If you have a rare disease, you are really out on a limb by yourself. Remember that the researchers of the MP all had Th1 disease. Lacking funding and support, they did the research and tested their theories on themselves. They sell nothing and ask for no money. They spend countless hours volunteering and donating their time to help others. IMO, this is a better “clinical trial” than some Big Pharma company outsourcing to India or Africa to test designer steroid drugs in order to (hopefully) obtain a patent so they can make mega-bucks for a decade or so. It is also more credible than a website that pushes Vitamin D, sells the vitamins and also peddles everything from tanning beds to vegetable washers. You know who I am talking about.
We have to make the best choices with the info we have. Good luck to you.
PS My husband was diagnosed 28 years ago (stage III/IV). Interestingly he has had less herxing than I have had at an earlier stage (I) in the disease. We have noticed that his restless legs are greatly improved. There have been no huge improvements in his lung function (yet). He has a great deal of fibrosis in his lungs. We have only been on this a year. We understand that as the years go by, we can expect some remodeling and hopefully some resolution of the fibrosis.
Hi Max,
We are concerned that serum markers for cytokine activity do not offer as valid a marker as a paracrine measure… which would mean that when it comes to the clinical trial and ankylosing spondylitis, we would have to draw cerebrospinal fluid from patients. No thank you! Also, you might have evidence to the contrary, but a lot of the cytokine tests are expensive. As far as I know, a number of insurance companies do not pick up the tab for the test.
That article you linked to is in a state of revision as are approximately 30% of the articles in the Knowledge Base. The badge REVISE corresponds to articles that still need help. There’s a reason why some pages have not been promoted to this point.
Best,
Paul
As far as cytokine activity goes Benicar is a AT1 antogonist and has well documented effects on several cytokines. It is well known that it down regulates TGFb and alot of the smad signalling cascade. This is actually most likely anti infalmmatory in nature…though its debatable as to if the signalling interruption is anti or pro TH1 enhancing. This effect is a class effect noticed with all ARBs…not just Benicar.
I like your idea as it apllies to sarcoidosis, but the reliance on computer modeling data is very weak indeed. You would need to get in the lab and show some things in vivo in order to gather steam.
I dont dismiss anyones ideas,,,perhaps youve got a good one….but you are failing to test your hypothysis in a scientific way.
BTW…ACE and angiotensin signalling is upregulated in numerous diseae states and interrupting signaling through the AT1 receptor may be benificial in many disease states….there are tissue protective benefits to doing so….but that action is not limited to Benicar.
Computer modeling data rarely pans out in the “real world”….the software is based on statistics and predicts likely interactions but does NOT confirm them. In vivo data often contradicts the findings….I know I work in the drug industry
“…In our opinion, the optimal amount of vitamin D is what you might naturally get from unsupplemented food and exposure to light….”
Under a guideline this broad, a dark-skinned, vegetarian office worker living in Canada is just as ‘optimal’ as the same as a Scandanavian landscape worker living in Florida. Odd, but… let’s try to go with it.
Okay, let’s see. “Optimality” may well be a broad plain between something like 5 ng/dL and 80 ng/dL, but if so, why bother militating for (or against!) Vitamin D supplementation. It seems pointless.
“Just eat and get some sun”? I can’t buy the Down-With-D agenda on this point.
Another point: The claim is made that we are more (much more?) D-supplemented in this century, especially the last several decades and we also tan more and as a result, our D levels are higher (quite a bit higher?). This, too, seems off. In the last century, urbanization skyrocketed from about 10% to close to 80%. More cars, more trains, far less farming. Less sun. Given that a Caucasian with bare arms and bare legs and no sunscreen can make 20,000 IU in about twenty minutes in the summer sun, the argument that we have even more D now is very weak.
(Incidentally, someone living 5000 years ago didn’t get much sun? Believing that woud be fun. I see where the expert you cite couldn’t say anything about it, but until we find the Neanderthal skyscrapers, thier covered offices, Neando-covered cars, their covered stores, their many clothes racks and closets, and their discarded sunscreen bottles, I think you have a very long row to hoe.)
Another point: VDR. Many cells convert 25D to 1,25D. The focus 1,25D is over-strained, and doesn’t support the resultant assertions. 25D is readily converted to 1,25D outside the kidney, by many cells. (More on this in a moment..)
Another point: 1,25 and 25 have radically different ‘pharmacokinetics’. If you wish to rail against de facto testing, you could discuss that clearly. 25(OH)D is the best indicator of vitamin D status, reflecting vitamin D produced cutaneously AND that obtained from food AND supplements. It has a long half-life of two weeks or so. But 25D levels do not indicate the amount stored in other body tissues. Circulating 1,25D is not a good indicator of overall status because it has a very short half-life of 15 hours hours. 1,25D levels do not typically decrease until vitamin D deficiency is severe. The argument here relies overmuch on a short term, symptomatic variable (1,25D) and leaves many confounding influences unaddressed.
I am not sure what cabdrivers, “nattily dressed” entrepreneurs, and all that have to do with real Vitamin D studies. I am also not sure, given the lack of focus here on endogenous extrarenal creation of 1,25D, that you’ve captured the variables in even your software program. Perhaps folks with chronic diseases lose this 1,25D synthesis abliity, hence their “suppressed” levels
– levels you tout as somehow beneficial. (!)
It seems an odd “Anti-D” agenda has clouded what might have been a useful model. You are absolutely correct in your thrust that its critically important that we find out long-term effects of D — either its suppression or its supplementation.
For me, your own “Blaney” graphic sums it up: Most autoimmune victims have sub-optimal 25D and simultaneously low 1,25D. You think that’s symptomatic. I believe it’s causal.
I’m glad you like the Blaney graph, but it actually shows that this population of autoimmune patients have high levels of 1,25-D. Look at it again.
Paul
Paul,
Point granted — if one accepts the “deficient/elevated” boundaries given on the graph. (And are we to accept the implicit assertion of the graph that “elevated” follows immediately on the heels of “deficient”? )
What if one does not accept the graph’s pre-supposition of ‘deficient’?
Most Pro-D’ers (what should one call these Evil-Doers, anyway? “D Advocates?” Sounds like Brooklyn…) would assert ‘optimal’ 25D was 50-80 ng/dL or roughly 130-184 nmol/L (if I recall the stoichiometry conversion of 2.35 correctly.)
Now go back and look at Blaney again. Not many sick people out there, above 130 ng/dL, are there? Nope.
All that graph shows is that (a) 25D and 1,25D are related and (b) most sick people are sub-optimal, at least according to the Evil D’ers.
(I can’t comment substantively on what optimal 1,25D levels are; but I do know studies where they are cited as strongly correlated with 25D levels.)
There are a lot of variables here, especially when you roll in healthy vs. sick, paracrine dynamics of malignant versus normal cells, and I haven’t given it the time and thought you two have.
But I am not sure the science is out there (in vivo, not in silico) to support the conclusions reached in this posting.
If you are puzzled about what criteria were used to come up with the “elevated” designation, you are in luck. The pre-print of the Blaney paper is now online:
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/BlaneyAnnals2009Preprint.pdf
Men who have excessive faith in their theories or ideas are not only ill prepared for making discoveries; they also make very poor observations. Of necessity, they observe with a preconceived idea, and when they devise an experiment, they can see, in its results, only a confirmation of their theory. In this way they distort observation and often neglect very important facts because they do not further their aim….
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING !!!!!
Get some in-vivo results that confirm you work already
Bill,
We don’t need to be proven right for those who advocate vitamin D supplementation to be shown wrong. You’ll notice that we do not even discuss our work until the very end of this post.
Science is about thinking critically, and a lot of researchers have missed the ball when it comes to vitamin D – whether they have heard of our work or not!
I would also point out that we are not the ones who are saying hundreds of millions of people should be forced to add much more of a secosteroid to their diet. The burden of proof is on “them” – not us.
Paul
Paul,
Thanks for directing me to Blaney paper link. You
suggested I read it and his graph again. So I did.
Get out your pencil and ruler.
I take your/Blaney’s ‘normal’ 1,25D (40-110 pmol/L)
and the Evil D’ers ‘optimal’ 25D recommendation
(50-80 ng/dL) and I find a box you might
label “normal/optimal” 25/1,25D levels” on that
graph.
Now, notice how many of your sick/autoimmune
patients are in there. None.
Conclusion: Optimal supplementation per the
Vitamin Evil D’ers is A Good Thing.
Now that that is out of the way, let me say that
I think you guys possibly are possibly onto something, namely, what is the precise causal
relationship between 25D, 1,25D, inflammation,
bacteriality (the state, not the website),
and 1,25D creation/destruction.
Perhaps when the Anti-D agenda clears, the
science on this will become clearer to the
average guy in the street?
After all, that’s what we’re counting on you
PHDs to do: Observe neutrally, hypothesize
creatively and posit logically.
At the risk of eliciting yet another comment from you… you are *once again* misreading the chart. The units for 25-D are nmol/L – not ng/dL.
Paul
Paul,
I empathize with your feeling of risk in responding
to my comments.
Somewhere in the school you went to, they
covered the difference between ng/dL and
nmol/L. Read my post again. Set aside the
rancor and the frat boy manners, pick up your
2.35 ng/dL to nmol/L stoichiometry calculator
for 25D, and read Blarney’s [sic] chart.
Do the conversion. I can’t think for you, Paul.
Ross,
No more posts from you. Your posts are wasting people’s time.
Paul
Hi Paul
Can you please explain the outcome of this controlled studie.
“In the trial, Dr. Bruce Hollis and Dr. Carol Wagner of the Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, gave one group of pregnant women 4,000 IUs per day of vitamin D at about three months of pregnancy. They gave a second group 400 IUs per day, amounts recommended by U.S. and UK governments.
Trial participants were monitored by testing their blood and urine samples to make sure calcium and vitamin D levels were within safe ranges. No side effects were observed in either group and vitamin D levels in the women’s blood increased by about 50 percent.
The researchers found pregnant women who took 4000 IUs of the sunshine vitamin per day reduced their risk for premature birth by half compared to the controls and they were less likely to have small babies.
Women on the high-dose vitamin D3 supplements compared with those on low dose-vitamin D supplementation were at a 25 percent reduced risk for infections, particularly respiratory infections such as colds and flu as well as infections of the vagina and the gums.
Women taking high doses of vitamin D also showed reduced risk for diabetes, high blood pressure, and preeclampsia. In addition, babies getting the most vitamin D after birth were less likely to experience colds and eczema.
In another trial, the researchers found that supplementation of 6,400 IUs per day in breastfeeding women provided infants with sufficient vitamin D for their babies, 400 IUs per day.”
Best
Niels
Hi Niels,
It’s hard to critically appraise what is, in essence, a press release. For example, the release talks about “safe” and “sufficient” levels of (presumably) 25-D without mentioning what those ranges are. How were patients randomized or allocated? The often-cited 2007 Lappe study is one example of a trial that did not randomize participants on the basis of the stated primary outcome of the paper. See this letter to the editor:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/87/3/792-a
Anyway, this result seems to be consistent with what a lot of existing research – as well as the model for disease we describe here on Bacteriality. According to our model, small doses of vitamin D given to healthy people are rapidly converted into 1,25-D which may lead to a temporary increase in immune activity. If you are young and fertile enough to bring a child to term, you are usually fairly healthy, so – who knows – maybe we’re seeing these subjects getting a short-term benefit.
If you read any of our papers, you’ll see we’re talking about a harm that takes place over the course of many years. Look at Chlebowski et al. See how vitamin D shifts from therapeutic to harmful, but that it takes more than a decade to so. Look at Hyponnen, who showed that incidence of asthma and atopy spiked more than two decades after initial supplementation.
Final note: I don’t know if you know anyone sick with chronic disease, but some of them will readily attest that they *never* get colds. Surely that’s not a sign of health. I would say that the reason a person sick with disease does not get a cold is that their immune system is relatively inactive. Isn’t an elevated temperature, etc. your body’s way of ridding itself of a pathogen?
Best,
Paul
Hi Paul,
I have read all about the MP and there is no doubt in my mind, that your are making a terrible mistake to recommend a lower vitamin-D level in your treatment.
There is no doubt that there is an increase of chronic diseases in the Western world. This increase has nothing to do with the rise of 25-D level, but that the level has decreased. The last 50 years a lot of people were working outdoors, but now most are working indoors. We have the last 10-15 years been told that the sun is dangerous, which has meant that our vitamin D levels have fallen dramatically. It is exactly this, which causes an increase of ex. cancer, chronic diseases and many other diseases. You recommend that vitamin D levels should be low and that high levels are harmful to the immune system in the long term. But the vitamin D level in humans have currently never been lower than it is now, so there should instead be a decrease in chronic diseases, etc..
I have also noticed that there’s no proof for your statement that vitamin D supplementation are harmful in the long term. If you have, I would love to see them.
Best
Niels
Dear Amy and Paul,
Thank you so much for your work and your site.
However, I think even you underestimate the problems associated with the media and medical hype surrounding vitamin D and its effect on people with granulomatous conditions.
Those who have access to a computer and knowledge to use the web sooner or later will come across the MP. People who do will learn about the effect of D on chronic disease.
Nevertheless, there are many people who, for one reason and another, do not come across sites like this, or choose to believe the media, or come upon dectractors of Marshall’s theories on chronic disease. These people with granulomatous disease are in some danger and totally unaware of it.
I was astounded at the cavalier attitude of members of the D Council and Dr Michael Holick, who concede that people with granulomatous disease have dysregulation of vitamin D and calcium metabolism. They are making people who suffer from these diseases ‘lambs to the slaughter’ at the altar of vitamin D.
I am a sarcoid sufferer, and am a convert to the MP. I also frequent non MP sarcoid sites. Many of these sites do not allow mention of the MP. I abide by their rules. And, in anycase, the MP doesn’t have a monopoly on the notion of the poor regulation of D and calcium metabolism in Granulomatous disease. The problem of D in these diseases is an established medical fact. Nevertheless, the message is not getting out to many sarcoid victims, nor their clinicians.
The drive to push D for osteoporosis prevention and numerous other health benefits is causing serious harm to people with granulomatous diseases. Doctors are testing the 25D of people with these illnesses and finding it low. What is more, they assume that it is low due to deficiency or prolonged prednisone use. Alternatively, some are having bone densities tested and turning up with osteopenia or osteoporosis. Granulomatous disease patients are often put onto supplements of 50,000 I. U. of vitamin D, or D and calcium or bisphosphonates. Some lucky patients associate a downturn in their conditions with the recent addition of D to their treatment regimes. Others, fully trust their doctors and continue to take the supplements. Sure, a few patients do get kidney stones, but they are in the minority from what I see happening on non MP sarcoid support sites. Many develop frank hypercalcemia and often after only a couple of weeks. A couple of patients have ended up at emergency in semi-comatose states. I believe it is only a matter of time before people begin to die. Indeed, this scenario may have already occurred. Recently, my mother’s friend told her of the death of a friend from kidney failure attributed to sarcoidosis. Could this poor lady have been supplementing with vitamin D? Certainly, I myself have had it pressed on me. Needless to say, I broke off relations with that doctor. On one site I frequent, I have come across at least four cases of kidney stones, one case of calcification of the thyroid gland, and at least ten cases of hypercalcemia, only one of which was NOT brought on by supplementation of vitamin D. One case occured due to treatment of Fosomax with D; and the worst case of hypercalcemia, where the patient almost died, was supplementing both D and calcium. Indeed, last year when I developed a scotoma due to sarcoidosis, thought at first to be a detached retina, the hospital prescribed me a Calcium supplement but no D. Younger doctors, and doctors who have experienced an adverse event due to calcium and d disregulation in granulomatous diseases have greater awareness. The vast majority of physicians do not even know about it. Many of them are resistant to testing calcitriol levels of patients who request it. Indeed, the lady who almost died of hypercalcemia after her obgyn prescribed D and Calcium, flatly denied to her that the D had caused her hypercalcemia. This was inspite of the fact that hospital emergency staff had told the lady that she should never have taken vitamin D while her sarcoidosis was active. One lady, a nurse herself, bravely contacted members of the Vitamin D Council. She got a call from Holick as well as email replies from Vieth and Grant. All she contacted, apart from Grant, acknowledged D dysregulation in Granulomatous Disease. All, with the exception of Grant, told her supplementation was OK provided that she got two baseline levels of 1,25D, 25D, PTH, Calcium and Urine Calcium – and that calcium levels needed to be closely monitored during treatment. After showing these replies from leading lights in the ‘D’ world to her treating physician, she still, to her dismay, walked away with a request for only 25D and urine calcium. This stubborn state of denial and media hype is putting people’s lives at risk. Most doctors deny the need for , or refuse to do tests for calcitriol or PTH prior to supplementing their patients. As more sarcoidosis victims are becoming aware of these tests we are seeing some interesting trends which I would like to bring to your attention, but bear in mind, these are people who are not being treated by the MP. Firstly, many people are on prednisone, so D test results are affected. Some people on prednisone have low Ds but still show hypercalciuria. There are sarcoidosis specialists out there now realising the damage hypercalciuria is doing to their patients. Most use prednisone to correct this even in the absence of other sarcoid symptoms. While it is good that hypercalciuria is becoming recognised as a silent destroyer of health, its normal method of treatment will also result in long term health downturn.
The British and Australian Governments acknowledge D and Calcium dysregulation in Granulomatous diseases in legislation on vitamin supplements – as does the European Union. Even so, the vast majority of physicians remain oblivious to it. With promotion of vitamin D as a panacea by the Vitamin D Council, I fear that the health of human inhabitants of the planet is being hi-jacked. It is climate change denial all over again.
What, if anything, can be done to protect the unsuspecting?
Denise
Hi Niels,
I am afraid you are completely misunderstanding/misrepresenting our model of vitamin D metabolism. I don’t think anyone would argue that low levels of 25-D aren’t associated with at least several chronic diseases. Our model states that in chronic disease, the body will downregulate levels of the secosteroid in order to upregulate immune activity. In other words, we both agree that 25-D is low in chronic disease, but you think it’s the cause. We think it’s the effect.
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf
If you haven’t seen them already, you should have a look at these studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15699498
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083421
Best,
Paul
Hi Paul,
In a Danish trial researchers have found that almost 70% of the Danish schoolchildren are vitamin-D deficiency. In late winter 40% of them have a level lower than 10ng/ml. If I understand you right, those 40% must have some kind of illness do to their low level of 25-D, because their body are downregulating the secosteroid in order to upregulate immune activity. That’s totally nonsense.
Best
Niels
Yeah sure, it’s complete nonsense that the body would develop mechanisms to regulate levels of a powerful secosteroid. Have a look at the structural difference between the structure of vitamin D and that of a steroid.
We are born to live in the sun and not to stay indoors the most of ouer lives. Thats exactly what most people are doing nowadays. Kids don’t play outside anymore but are using most of their times in front of a computer. In Denmark we don’t forfine any foods with vitamin-D, we have been told to awoid the sun between 12-15 and we don’t use sunbenches anymore. The result is that we have the higest cancer rate in the world.
Best
Niels
Hi Niels,
That’s a pretty big stretch. There are many other reasons why the incidence of cancer could be so hight in Denmark. For example, cancer is increasingly being tied to the presence of pathogens and dysregulated microbial communities. It could be that the prevalence of certain cancer causing microbes is higher in Denmark and that these microbes are more easily passed around a relatively homogeneous population.
The idea being put forth by vitamin D advocates that Vitamin D = cure for cancer is way to simplistic to even begin to address the complex disease process that is cancer. There are other populations and people who live in countries that don’t supplement the food supply with vitamin D and have people who work largely indoors. Yet cancer is not necessarily a concern for many of these individuals.
It’s becoming increasingly accepted in the medical community that vitamin D is a powerful immunosuppressant. There are many variables that influence how a person responds to supplementation and sun.
Best,
Amy
Hi Denise,
I share your frustration greatly. I’ve done everything I can to publish on vitamin D, speak on the topic, discuss our research with doctors and scientists, but I suspect it will be a long time before we can overcome the idea that vitamin D is an innocuous sunshine vitamin. I would say though that every person who understands the negative effects of vitamin D on granulomatous diseases and is working to spread that knowledge is making a difference. So I would encourage you to keep talking about the subject on the boards that you frequent, although not in the context of the MP, I guess.
Take care,
Amy